Station 1902

Speaker A: Welcome to another station, 1902 podcast. I'm your host, Ed Mann, director of training and education for Providence. Today. Our special guest is Joe Bonanno, a retired fire department in New York, firefighter and a certified fitness trainer, nutritionist, and author of several cookbooks. Joe reached out to us a few months ago and indicated he'd like to do a podcast and a webinar with us. Of course, we jumped at the chance. After all, I don't know any firefighter who doesn't like food. Joe, welcome to the show. Please tell our listeners about yourself.

Speaker B: Hey, Ed, thank you very much. It's an honor and a privilege to be here with your show and all your listeners. Um, yeah, I did 21 years on the New York fire department. I worked actually during what they like to call now the war years, 1979 to 2001. So I got my share of fire duty and firefighters and stuff like that. But, so I'll give you a little background of how this whole cookbook thing happened and actually a little bit of the history of firehouse cooking. Well, where it started for me, actually, in 1984, well, firehouse cooking has always been a tradition. I have a history, history of firehouse cooking in my book, American Firehouse Cuisine, about the history. It started with Ben Franklin in Philadelphia when he started the first volunteer fire department. And New York used to come down there and they would feed them and put them in the bunk room and everybody make a big deal out of the meal. So that's always been a firehouse tradition. So fast forward to 1983 84. This fellow, John Cenino, he was a New York City firefighter. He worked in engine 58 in Harlem and, you know, wasn't a professionally trained chef, but he was a good firehouse cook. And a little bit of reputation got around. So a publisher said, would you do a little like a paperback book, maybe 100 recipes? And, you know, like me, when it happened for me, he was like, well, you know, I'm not a professional. They still want to do it, think it would be fun for New York and stuff like that. So he put together the book. It came out in 1984. Now to expand that story of how it went. So it ended up being on the New York Times bestseller list for nine weeks in a row. It was a New York Times bestseller, a small little paperback that initially they did a run of 5000 copies. They were just going to do it locally and give the money to the burn center. And as fate would have it for me and for him, what happened in 84? Phil Donahue used to have the Phil Donahue show. He was moving to New York, and he wanted to warm up to his audience. So he asked his producers, listen, I want to do a show and really warm up to the New York audience because I'm coming from Chicago and they don't know me. So one of the producers says, hey, listen, this fireman just did a little cookbook. And everybody, all big cities, small cities, all cities love their firefighters. They always see him at the food store. So he says, why don't we do a little cooking segment on tv? And this is before cooking shows really took off and all that. So John did a cooking. He had six other firefighters from engine 58 with him. He did a little demo. He actually burnt the chicken on this. Like, he got nervous being on tv and he didn't watch. And the smoke was pouring, which made for a funny segment. And John was a great guy. You know, I don't use the word charismatic. They used to call him Mama Sanino because he cared about everybody and cooked for them. So he had an engaging personality. And between a little smoke on the stage and Phil Donahue, that, the book went completely viral after that. That's the word now. And went on the New York Times bestseller list for nine weeks in a row. And once it gets on the bestseller list, it sells even more. So. And John was all over tv after that. He was like a mini celebrity. Anyway, fast forward for me, and I don't want to take up the entire conversation. I had that idea in the back of my head. Got on the fire department. You know, my father was a firefighter also. He didn't talk that much about the cooking part of it. That was all new to me. And then, wow. Once I got on the fire department and sat down and had a few of those meals, I was like, wow. I mean, some guys really went out, some firefighters really went out of their way to do a spectacular job on making recipes. Yeah, some nights normal, but most of the time, the food was just out of this world. And again, you sit at the table, you're familiar with it, like a big family, and you kid around, you talk job talk, you talk friend talk problems. You solve all the problems of the world at the kitchen table. So I really enjoyed that. But what started to happen is some of the firefighters I work with who were ten, maybe 15 years older than me, unfit. I used, I'll use the word calorically challenged to be politically calorically challenged. But, you know, that was before the exercise crazy even got even as big as it is now and in the last 2030 years. But. And their thinking was, I was in a busy firehouse. I get enough exercise. I don't want to. Big deal. I got a 50 inch waist, and I'm out of breath on the first floor. And again, who am I, as a new probationary fireman to challenge seasoned, battle hardened veterans? But on their eating, I could. I'm like, listen, and I don't want to end up like that myself. So I started here and there volunteering to cook, and then I would just try to make it as healthy as possible. You know, instead of putting four sticks of butter and mashed potatoes, I would put roasted garlic. And by no means did I have any professional chef training. This was just kind of home cooking that I kind of liked, you know, and, you know, firefighters that, you know, warmed up to it, and, you know, and I wasn't trying to push the healthy thing so much. You know, things like health and fitness goes more by attraction and promotion. You know, you can't shove it down their throat. But if they say, hey, wow, you're fit, you know, and they know what they're doing. They're out of breath. They're like, geez, I got to lose some weight, you know? And then I just got certified as a fitness trainer and a nutritionist by NYU. So I decided one Saturday in between classes to take another class that was called how to write a cookbook and get it published. Now, I didn't go hell bent on the idea of publishing a book. I just wanted to get the information. But there was 70. It was a new class, and it was like 75 people there in the class with ten times the qualifications, especially in cooking. I had basically none, just a half ass firehouse cook. So the teacher made everybody go around the room, say, your idea. So I said, my idea? I said, listen, the firefighter wrote a book in 84, you know. Unfortunately, John wound up having a triple bypass heart attack from his eating. I don't know, but he was of that previous year or so, maybe. So I said to the teacher, you know, when we were given ideas, I said, you know, if I was going to do a cookbook, it would be a healthy firehouse cookbook, you know? And he said, wow, that's. That's a pretty good idea. We have an editor coming in from Hearst this afternoon. I'd like you to speak with her. So she gave her presentation. Meanwhile, 75 people in the class, they were ready to kill me. They all went to, like, culinary Institute of Hyde park. They trained in France, in Switzerland, you know, a hundred times the qualifications I had, it just the fireman idea was, you know, for the teacher and eventually for the editor. Lit them up. So in the afternoon, the editor from Hearst gave her dissertation on what it's like to get a book published. And I said, sounded impossible to me. Query letters and sample recipes. And then you got to get the agent. You know, it just seemed like. So I didn't even raise my hand when she wanted. She said, if anybody has any ideas, I'll open the floor for five minutes. And everybody else's hand went up because they were trying to get noticed and they're in New York because if she, you know, if somebody said, hey, I trained it to hide. I'm a classically trained french chef and I want to do a book. And she said, gave him the green light. That's a big company. So meanwhile, I didn't mention it. Class ends. The teacher says, listen, don't be shy. If you have a really good idea, even if it's not 100% ready, like off Oiman, for instance. And I'm like, oh, my God. Now he puts me on the spot. He said, stand up and say your idea, Joe. So I stood up. Same thing. I said, I was a New York fireman at that time for 1314 years. I like to try to eat healthy and keep fit for my job. There was a successful book in 84 that was on the bestseller list, but unfortunately, he had a triple bypass. So if I was going to do a book, it would be a healthy fire scope. I mean, the editor lit up. She goes, wow, what a great idea. Can you see me after class? And then everybody was ready to kill me because they came specifically to get a book published. And I just came on a summer Saturday for the heck of it, you know? So she gave me, you know, it rounds up being funny because she gave me a card. I don't think. I think she thought I was like some ex author or something. Gave me a call. She was, do you have an agent? And I go, Harriet. And Harriet, agent. You know, I'm. Didn't I say I was a farm and axes, hoses, water. That's what we. I don't have an agent. So she goes, well, you have to work through an. She was, I'll set the whole thing up for you. So she, she got me an agent, a writer agent, and that agent made me put together ten sample recipes, some of my own, and they didn't want it to be a New York farming cookbook like the other one. They wanted to have national appeal. So I put an ad in firehouse magazine. At the time to get recipes. And I got about 100, 2130. And then you have to call them out, the ones, good ones, bad ones, some of my own in there, too. And then submitted the proposal and they gave it to green light and in 95. Seems like a long time ago. And it was, the book came out. And then, I mean, once you get a national publisher after that, I mean, and I was still working full time. I mean, and it got crazy. It was like Martha Stewart, Good Morning America Today show, new, you know, LA Today, then magazines. It really got crazy, you know, and it was, it was fun, but it really got great. Plus, I was working full time, you know, so, yeah, so I got a bunch of publicity book, did really great. Donated some money to the, you know, widow and children's fund. That book did well. Then they came to me in 98, and they. Cause the book did well. They wanted to do a grilling book. So I went ahead and did a grilling cookbook.

Speaker A: So you just walked us through the whole process of how you end up with the two books. So one of them is the american firehouse cuisine.

Speaker B: No, I just know the first one is the healthy firehouse cookbook.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Then the firehouse grilling cookbook. Now, I just recently, in 2021, for the 20 year anniversary of 911, I published American Firehouse cuisine.

Speaker A: Wow. Okay. So this, this all started with. On a whim. You went to a class on a.

Speaker B: Whim, a class at the new school. And it wasn't right.

Speaker A: And the teacher put you on the spot. And the, the lady, it was there said, I love the idea, and it just took off from there.

Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't have any professional chef training. I just had firehouse training. And then. So, yes, it came because I took the class on a whim. And the, and the idea is what they really liked. And, and plus, you know, listen, cookbook, they're in the business to make money. So they say, wow, we got a New York City fireman. We already had a successful book by a New York fireman. This is a little twist on that with healthy. He has the background. You know, I just got certified as a fitness trainer and nutritionist by New York University, and I was starting to do a little personal fitness. So I had a fitness and nutrition background, but not cooking. But she didn't care. She said, you know, put a New York fireman on the COVID of a cookbook with a good meal and recipes across the country. The book will sell. And it did.

Speaker A: So in my research. I spent some time on your website, americanfirehousecuisine.com and I got to tell you, I'm really impressed with the setup you have in the studio.

Speaker B: What I wanted to do, I mean, the idea for a firehouse cooking show has been bounced around for 25, 30 years. I was approached a bunch of times. Nobody seemed to be able to pull it off. And my idea was, you know, yeah, it'd be neat to go to each individual firehouse, but you got to need permission, you know, you got to hope they're not running in and out all day. And especially now, it's easy. So I wanted to have the recreation of what I loved about the fire department was the old nostalgic firehouse with the pole and the gritty look to it, you know, and that was part of the appeal. Well, gee, you worked in a firehouse, you've eaten in the fire if you know what it's like.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that feel, that nostalgic, gritty, inner city firehouse type feel. So that's what I wanted to do, is create the thing, create the studio to look like what I envisioned. I worked with all my career and it was very endearing to me. And then, yes, I get the signature entrance of sliding down a pole, which kind of sets it apart from most other cooking shows.

Speaker A: So to our listeners, just so you know, the link to Joe's website will be in the notes that you get sent. But it's americanfirehousecuisine.com, yet. Need to go to the website. You can check out his books, but you really need to take the setup he has in the studio. I mean, when I looked at it, it's like, okay, he's renting a firehouse somewhere to do this. That's, that's how authentic and original. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you. I'm no set builder. I'm pretty handy, but I'm not a set builder. So in other words, I captured, and that's what I really wanted to capture because so many, well, working, they still have, but so many of the retired firefighters that I speak with miss that in such a big way. Yeah, they missed the breaking the doors down and the burning buildings and the sirens, and they do. But they all in mass said, man, we really miss the camaraderie of chopping and slicing and dicing and putting a meal together and then sitting down and eating. So that's what I wanted to create. So when I have guests in, they're going to feel like they're in a real firehouse. And, you know, maybe for a moment, it takes some retiree back to when he, you know, was younger, myself included, and had great meals and goofed around in the kitchen while you were chopping and slicing a dicing. So, yeah, that's so. Thank you.

Speaker A: I was super impressed with it. It reminded me when I was much younger, I used to go to an engine company. It was an engine, a truck and a battalion chief in the south side of Chicago was engine 84, truck 51, battalion twelve, ran out of a firehouse that was built in like late 18 hundreds. And when I saw your setup, that's. It reminded me of walking into that fire station in the south side of Chicago back in about 1978, 79.

Speaker B: Oh, wow, I'm thrilled to hear that because that's what I wanted to recreate. I wanted that feeling, and I get that feeling when I go in there. So I just reshows already. You know, I'm not a video expert. I'm not. Yeah, I built the set and everything, but so that's, I'm trying to get the technical part of it down it, you know, it's not easy, you know, doing a food show. So I'm going to start having guests.

Speaker A: I'm sure if you looked around the FDNY, you probably find some youngster in the firehouse today that, that's up on all that video, audio stuff that would be more than willing to jump in and give you a hand with it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm looking at. And, you know, I also don't want to, and you just mentioned younger firefighters, and I do hear here and there different firehouses and not like having a meal together and everybody's busy on their cell phones. That's what, the other thing I wanted to is keep this tradition alive of family style bonding around a kitchen table and food, you know? Yeah.

Speaker A: A little bit later here in the podcast, we're going to talk about the kitchen table because that's, uh, I missed that as well. So we're, we're going to talk about that here a little later. But, so I see you want a lot of cooking contests, so I mean, you just don't show up and say, hey, I'm here to cook. So talk about all the preparation and stuff you had to do beforehand in order to get yourself ready to go cook in a cooking contest that you come out on top.

Speaker B: Well, first thing is you have to pick a recipe that you think is, I want, I don't want to use the word easy, you know, you don't want this lengthy 500 ingredient recipe that you see in some of the magazine. So you want something. And then, you know, that's why I said, you can't say this. Everybody loves chicken. No, you got to hope that the judges. So you try to get a little pre information. Like, these judges seem to like fish. These judges seem to like chicken dishes, these, like, comfort food type thing. So you look for that. That's what I look for. Who are my judges? What level, professionally they are. Then I say, all right, let me make something that is. It has to be challenging. But, like, you can't just make chicken cutler Parmesan because that tastes great no matter what. Almost, pretty much so. And then it's not challenging. So then they don't consider you talented, that you can't make anything more complicated. You have to pick something a little bit more complicated than chicken cutlet Parmesan, but not so complicated that you overdo it and you get lost and maybe even not even get to finish the recipe. That's what I usually did. And then I didn't stick with, like, if I was. If it was a contest. I mean, I didn't stick with stuff that, you know, any firehouse anywhere, USA meatballs and gravy. You had to pick something a little challenging, but not too challenging. And then the other thing that you learn, too. And that's why I eventually, when I, after 911, I went to culinary school and got my chef's degree. Because when you go in contests, they don't want it like a firehouse. It's just plop on the plate. Plop. And the bigger the plop, and that's it. So, you know, you have to do the whole thing. You have to decorate the plate and put the little garnish on it to make it. They call it a beauty plate so that when you present it to the judges, that it looks, you know, there's no beauty plate in the firehouse, right. You know, you're not going to come out, and you know, you're not going to sit down and, Joe, you didn't garnish my meatloaf with parsley. Come on. You know you're not gonna get that, but you're gonna get that in a contest. So you have to present it to the judges. They have to like the way it looks. You have to time everything there is. There really is a lot. There's a lot to. And it's very anxiety ridden, because this all, you know, your ego and the competition, and you're looking over at the other guy, what he's making, and is he screw, you know, is he always. His smells better than mine? And you really could get to you. But I just focused on what I was doing. A little something above a basic recipe. And the basic recipes done well, are usually pretty good.

Speaker A: That's good. And you've come out on top numerous times, as I recall my research, correct?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think in my list of ones that I won, that actually New York farm, one guy beat me with lobster Fra Diablo, and he was the winner. It was out of this world. And I did a shrimp Creole. So that one, I was second place, but I think I only did two second places. Most of the other ones were. Were first place.

Speaker A: All right, so, you know, the longer we sit here and talk, the hunger. Again, I'm glad this is just before lunch. So I got, I have to ask you, and I think you may have touched on it. So did your passion for cooking start before you started on a job as a firefighter, or did you find yourself in the firehouse saying, you know, I like to cook, and I want to start cooking at the firehouse? Where did the passion come from for the cooking?

Speaker B: Oh, this is going to crack you up. When I was a kid, I kind of liked it, and I have a big appetite. I work out. I have a big appetite, so I like to eat. So if you eat, you got to cook. That's one. The other one was, I used to watch the show the galloping gourmet when I was a kid. Oh, okay. Yeah. And the way he presented the food and the other thing I noticed when he would bring the food out, the women were all swooning when we bring the food out. And then, you know, as I'm growing up, I'm watching these cooking, you know, tv show. Yeah. And you're young, too, so, you know, and, you know, I'm watching, like, some guy make dinner for a girl on a date and stuff like that. And you see the girl swooning, like, oh, my God, this is. So I said, you know, instead of. And my friends, none of. Most of my friends don't cook. They're like, joe, get cooking. Just take them out to dinner. That's bad. They want to see you spend, you know, giving you advice. They want to see you spending money on them. And I go, well, first of all, I'm starting farming. I don't have that much money renovating my house. I need the money for the house. I said, no, I'm just gonna cook them dinner at home. And, yeah, then you. There's a certain. And women have said it. There's something endearing about a guy that cooks. I don't know what it is. It's a caring thing, but, you know, it works the same way in the firehouse that it's one of the. And that's why I say, you know, when somebody passes away, you bring them food, right? You can't abate their grief, but they're like, you know, you got to eat. I know you're upset, but, you know, and it's a. It's a big. Well, I call it comfort factor of food.

Speaker A: So. So I'm fortunate. Yesterday, I celebrated my 34th wedding anniversary. Woman I married worked in restaurants. She worked in a nursing home. So she loves to cook. So, like, so tomorrow or later today, I'll be traveling to Pittsburgh to our corporate office. She made homemade peanut brittle yesterday so I can take it out because there's two younger guys out there that love her homemade peanut brittle. So she made homemade peanut brittle and peanut butter fudge to take out. The more. Now, it's not as healthy as the stuff you cook, but I. I married a lady that knew how to cook, and I've learned my way around the kitchen just watching her. The one rule is that when she's cooking, I'm not allowed in the kitchen because I have a tendency to screw her up. So.

Speaker B: And give her directions that she didn't ask for.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier. So I've had the good fortune to break bread with firefighters, Chicago, Philadelphia. And while I was obviously on active duty with the air force and all, the food was always great. Even the stuff we got in the chow halls in the military was pretty good. But the family atmosphere of sitting around the kitchen table was part of the meal. And I know when I was in England and was working 24 on, 24 off, the guys used to like to do a family kind of meal. Okay, let's do a shift meal. Because a lot of guys would bring their own food in, and, you know, guys would start gathering at 05:00 but you'd have four or five separate tables and everybody. And my only rule was, if we were doing a shift meal, all the tables had to be put together into one large table. We all sat at the table at the same time, and it might be a Saturday morning breakfast or an evening meal on the weekend, but that was my rule when I was on shift, not five separate tables. They all have to be together. We all have to sit around one big table. And I love that atmosphere. And you mentioned it yourself, and I got to ask you on your experiences while serving at the FDNY. Why do you believe that that kitchen table is so important to the fire service?

Speaker B: Okay. Why is the kitchen table so important to the fire service? Because you have this three, four story firehouse or big open fires. Everybody's roaming all around, who's working out, who's studying for a lieutenant, and then, bing, the bell rings. Now, everybody. And now while the person's cooking, you can smell it. So in other words, what I'm saying is you kind of spread out during your tour of duty, and you're not spread out when you come around the kitchen table. One to eat, right. The anticipation of eating, and one. Now you sit in a course. Now what? My friend Bill Bresnan, he was a New York firefighter. He did a painting called the kitchen table, and it says where all the problems, all the world's problems are solved. And that's what. Yeah, of course. I love it. You know, that's one thing the food was, I have to say New York for. I've been, like you said, philadelphia, chicago, they go out of their way to just put down this. And the volume of it, too, is incredible. But it's more that you're all sitting down now. You have to all be together. And like my friend Bill said with his painting world, you know, listen, I don't know if we could solve the world's problems. We can't. We could laugh about it. We could weigh it out between five to ten people. Some guys are going to have one opinion of it, whether it's you had money problems, car problems, somehow somebody in that group of people is going to figure out a way to solve it. And if we can't solve it, we're going to laugh about it, you know, somehow and get. We're going to get you through it, like, you know, yeah, of course we have your back. When we're dragging a hose line into a smoky hallway, that's a given. But, you know, it's more letting people know why you're sitting around eating that. We, you know, we got you back here also. Whatever and whatever it is, your car broke down, you're breaking up with your, your wife, your whatever it is, it seemed like when you gather like that, especially under food, and I'll even qualify that further, really good food, it just brings. Brings out the conversation. It brings out. Yeah. I've seen very few fights at a kitchen table because it's more like once you're feeding somebody, that's all of that gets kind of let go over a really good meal and good conversation. I mean, you've experienced it.

Speaker A: Are we missing that today in firehouses? I mean, is that something that is a tradition that is finding its way by the wayside, do you think?

Speaker B: Well, actually, no, because I've had good feedback from the book. There's a website called cooking in the firehouse on Facebook, a social group, and these firefighters are listed in all kinds of recipes. The only thing I think, listen, if I was a captain or lieutenant or chief or anything, I'd be like, during dinner, no cell phones. I would make that a rule. Got you. If we're cooking, that's one thing. You want to talk to your girlfriend or your wife and friend or whoever it is, and you got issues at home. Yeah. While we're cooking, you want to take a break. But when we actually physically sit down to eat, which is only 15 minutes, a half an hour, if you have no runs, I mean, I think you could put your cell phone away for 15 minutes to half an hour. Nothing's that important. But to have firefighters, young firefighters, eating when somebody went out of their way to prepare a meal, and they not conversing, and they're eating with one hand, and on their left, they're texting somebody.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Gotcha. Yeah, I would be. No, that. I'm sorry, fellas. That gets shut down.

Speaker A: Couldn't agree with you more.

Speaker B: Right. And I'll share the nature of firefighters in general, and I don't know, because nowadays the world's changed and everybody's so sensitive, you can't do anything. Because we had a guy that I don't know what it was. Every time there was committee work, he would get an outside phone call from home. Like committee work meaning clean up in the morning.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But we started thinking, you know, is he telling his wife to call him at, like, 10:00 we go on duty at night so that he could like. And then as soon as the cleaning and mopping was done, he'd be off the phone. He'd go, okay, what do you need, fellas? And we thought he was doing it on purpose. So one guy, he's on the phone on that payphone, and one of the firefighters then went and got the partner saw, you know, they cut roof openings. And while the guy was on the phone at full tilt, and you can imagine what that sounds in a closed fire. Cut the cut. The guy dropped the phone and ran, and he cut the payphone off the wall so that he wouldn't call anyone. But my point of the story is, if I was working now, maybe even as a fireman, even as an officer. And I prepared a meal and I put it out and I saw a bunch of 30 year olds sitting around the table with and texting while you're eating my food, I would have got a big pot, and I would have walked by everybody, clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk. And it would all go in the pot, and they go, you pick up your phone after the meal, and that's it. You're here to, you're here to. We're here to hear your problems. You're here to our problems. We're here to enjoy a meal. We're here to be social. This is what keeps us together. And it's what's going to keep us together when we run down the smoky hallway and it's been like that, and I go, you and these cell phones is not going to change it. Not at least on my watch.

Speaker A: I mean, there, you know, there, there are some traditions that are certainly worth holding on to, and the kitchen table is certainly one of those. And I don't care, even if you're in a volunteer firehouse and you're bringing everybody together. The firehouse I just retired to. When we renovated the firehouse, we bought three eight foot long picnic tables that are all pushed together. So when we sat down at the firehouse, if we had a standby crew or whatever, we were all sitting at one long table with one another. And when the meal was over, you were probably sitting at the table another hour after the meal before anybody get up to do any dishes. That's a tradition I hope that we hang on to in the fire service.

Speaker B: Well, that's, that's really part of what I'm promoting with the show. I'm like, bring it back to what it was, you know, before. I mean, I don't think it's gone away. It hasn't, but it's sort of fading. And I'd hate to see some, somebody passed down some kind of directive saying, from this point on, there's going to be no meal in the firehouse. Bring your own food in. No, I hope that day never comes. And that's why I'm doing this for the younger firefighters and I'm doing it for the older.

Speaker A: So it's like, when I was in England, my wife used to prepare, she would cook a bunch of stuff, and I carried a relatively large lunchbox with me so I could heat stuff up in the evening for dinner. And he did liver and onions one time, and there was a guy on my shift that was originally from California. He said what is that? And I said, liver and onions. And he said, I never heard of such thing. He was kind of like you. So he tried a piece of it, and two weeks later he said, hey, whens your wife going to make liver and onions again? He said, that was pretty good stuff. So another thing we used to do at the station when I was in England is we would have meals based on where you were from in the country. So, like, a lot of people from the west coast didn't know what a Philly cheesesteak was, and they didn't know what a funnel cake was.

Speaker B: Oh, okay.

Speaker A: So my wife came to the firehouse one night and we cooked cheesesteaks and we cooked the funnel cakes. And a couple weeks later, the youngsters on the shift said, hey, can you have Nanette come to the firehouse and cook the funnel cakes? We don't necessarily want the cheesecakes or the cheesesteaks, but we want funnel cakes.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: You know, so it's there. It was food bringing people together. So, you know, we have a guy from the south that would cook a meal that was typical from his part of the country for everybody that was on the shift. And it worked out pretty good. I mean, I, you know, it, I hate to keep going back to the kitchen table, but it's, I saw what it did on my shift when I was running that shift, and, and we all got together and sat down at one large table for a meal with one another, and I just, you know, and again, when I looked at your setup for your studio, it took me back to 1978 79 when, when I went into a firehouse in the south side of Chicago. So I'm glad you're pushing that on your show. And, and I couldn't agree with you more. It's one tradition I hope we don't lose.

Speaker B: Well, I'm not, I'm not going to lose it via tv, but, so, but, yeah, it's for the younger and it's also for the older because I do hear from the older firefighters. That's one of the things they, they really miss that then, you know, retirement's great, you get a pension, go have a nice life and everything. But, man, you, where are you going to get a chance to sit down with twelve firemen, you know, and, and laugh and the jokes that you hear and just really, it was, it's, and it's really hard to recreate. Family is the same thing. Kind of. I don't, that's why I said I didn't want to make it just a fireman cooking show. I want it to be a cooking show. So I'm more. When I emphasize the family thing, it's also regular families, too. We're doing the same thing. Like I said, I don't have children or anything, but if I have nieces and nephews. But I'm like, listen, we're eating dinner. That phone's off. We're here to talk. We're here to get around. We're here to laugh and here to enjoy food. I don't want to see you. One eye on your dish, one eye on yourself. They're great cell phones. They're unbelievable. Look, I'm talking to you so far away, and we're doing this thing, and they have great things, but there's a time and a place to shut it down and be with the people you care about.

Speaker A: Yeah. And there's one tv show that I watch pretty regular in front of NYPD blues.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Frank Reagan in the tribe. I mean, they had that Sunday meal, and they don't start till everybody's at the table. And they have a rule about the cell phones. And. And if you get your phone out, even Commissioner Frank gets busted on if he picks his phone up to answer a call sitting at the table, so, so good.

Speaker B: They are doing that.

Speaker A: Yeah, they are. Yeah. So. So I got to ask you, what was. What was your favorite meal to prepare in the firehouse?

Speaker B: Well, the go to, which is the one I said before, and I just saw somebody, this guy, Dan Potter, writes the glory days thing, and he did something on cooking the other day, and he definitely said chicken colored parmesan. That was the, like, the go to, no fail recipe to make because, you know, pretty much universally cheese and gooey, nice mozzarella cheese and deep fried chicken cutlets. And, you know, chicken meat tastes good, and the sauce tastes. So generally, that was the go to. I didn't say it was my favorite. I just said it was my go to, my favorite meal to make at home. And even if I happened to be working in the forest, which really wasn't bad, was thanksgiving okay? Thanksgiving was. And I liked the whole everything about it, from soups to dessert, you know, and I. We would do a really big spread. So, in other words, if you have to work thanksgiving, you know, I used to laugh. Some of the married firefighters would be like, I'm so happy I'm here. I'm not dealing with Aunt Connie and her mother in law and this and that, and, you know, and on the. On the other side of that, to wives and the family members like, oh, my. Well, husband had to work and he's like, no, I'm glad. I don't want to be dealing with the crazy relatives. I really. So we would put out on Thanksgiving and Christmas, a real, like, right out of gourmet magazine spread. And I mean, everything fresh made, not canned cranberry sauce. And, no, we would do the whole thing. Like, I'd get up at six in the morning if I was working, and we'd have the turkey in the oven, and then we'd start with the gray fresh gravy, you know, and then it's actually in the book. There's a bread pudding recipe in the book for dessert, the latest one, american Fryers cuisine. It's, I mean, it's off the chart. I would go up against Barbie filet with that recipe, and it's all said it's only six ingredients, but. So we would make Thanksgiving dinner from soup, salad, main course, dessert, three or four different desserts, a carrot cake, bread pudding, rice pudding, and, you know, at that point, everybody wants to jump in and then, wow, that's, you know, you want to talk about, and I like the idea of it, your thanksgiving, instead of, I always say firemen are famous for griping about everything, but I go, it's okay to gripe, but still remain grateful. And that's the day you take a step back and you say, listen, we got a great job, we're healthy, we're happy, you know, we're in the greatest city in the world to work. I'd be a fireman. And, you know, we're gonna have someday, if we live long enough, we'll collect pensions. Just everything about thanks, will, about being grateful. And that's what it is. You sit down to this really fantastic meal, too, and you say, well, you know, it's an american tradition. That's one of the reasons. But I also like the food. I love turkey, I love fresh cranberry sauce, I love sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes with gravy, all the stuff that goes with thanksgiving. Yeah.

Speaker A: Great. Well, so maybe some of our younger, younger listeners who might be just starting in the fire service, if they decided they wanted to cook in the firehouse, what advice would you offer them?

Speaker B: First advice is don't be, don't, don't be intimidated. Number one. That would be first one. Don't be intimidated by the salty old firefighters, you know, you know, threat, not threatening you, but this better be good, kid, you know, don't, don't. My first one would be, don't be intimidated because that'll make you not do it. The other one is, if you are going to cook for a salty or seasoned crew, just ask them before, like, you work on Saturday night and you want to cook, say, what do you guys, like? Try to get a little bit of feedback, you know? And then the other one is, I would say practice it at home first so you don't screw it up in front of everybody. It'll be less intimidating if you practice at first. And then again, I could never say to somebody, you know, like, I don't like for believe it or not, I don't like corned beef and cabbage. So if somebody made, they would be the best cook in the world. If they made corned beef and cabbage, I don't like it. I don't like the way it smells. I'm not going to like to eat it. I know you're going to say farm and Irish in New York. You don't like, say Patty's day recipe, but no, I just something about it I don't like. So no matter what they. So I know that's why I say get some feedback. But. Or pick, like I just said, pick a go to standard that universally most everybody would like, which would be meatballs. Meatballs and. Meatballs. Gravy and spaghetti.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: With garlic bread. Easy enough to make. Recipes all over the charts. Don't have it. There's recipes in my book. There's recipes all over the Internet. Easy to make. Always taste delicious. Very filling. And the other one would be chicken cutler Parmesan.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Another go to for your new beginning firefighter and make sure, you know, do it right and don't screw it up. And the other mistake, make plenty of it. Don't go light on the serving size for. Especially for firefighters. And also especially your tour might be 24 hours, you know, at 02:00 in the morning when you get back and you starving, that leftover chicken cutlets gonna look pretty good. So, you know, make more than, make an ample amount. Pick something simple, practice it before you make it. And if you are gonna clean it up and make it healthy. I even learned that mistake. Don't even tell them it's healthy because they'll think it's weird herbs in it. So. And, you know, they're like, why is this rabbit food? So I said, just shut up, get out of the kitchen and I'll put it on the table and just, you know, eat it.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: So, yeah, that would be, yeah, that would be my advice. Yeah. Just simple practice. Ask who, what they like, you know, yeah. If you're going to come out and make some oddball thing like octopus, you know, not everybody's going to, like, warm up to that, you know, and know where you are. Like, listen, I'm not going to go to Texas, the barbecue state, and make octopus, and I'm not going to go. And if I go to Maine, you could bet I'm going to make lobster, you know, so, you know, like you were saying locally, stick locally. So, yeah, that's the best advice I could give, but get in there. Get in there and cook. And I don't think it's a bad idea. I like to put it out there to mention you're a younger firefighter. You really can't tell people what to do. It's just, you know, maybe you can suggest it. You know how you listen, just for this meal, you cut the phones and let's talk. You know, we know the mentality. Like, what, are you getting sensitive on me? You know, I know I already know what you're going to hear because I heard it my whole career, but I really. I didn't care. I'm like, listen, you know, this is for my meal. This is my rule.

Speaker A: Show a little respect for the cook. I mean, I.

Speaker B: What?

Speaker A: You know, what's wrong with that? There's. It's. So, look, when I did my research, I discovered a portion of any money raised through purchasing merchandise from your website goes to the firefighter Behavioral Health alliance. Why did you choose that important cause as someone to give the money to?

Speaker B: Are you familiar with them?

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm familiar with the name and familiar with the work they do.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's an organization that prevents, does seminars and prevention classes to prevent first respond to suicides. And the bigger one is it assists the families that have had this happen to them. And sadly, my brother Michael, who was a New York City firefighter in 2012, he committed suicide. And I can't even begin to tell your audience the devastating phone call that, you know, if you lose a family member or a friend through an accident or disease, that's one thing, but suicide is a whole horrible. I think it's the most horrible way to lose somebody because accident and disease, the hand of fate had a little play in it. Yeah, they had a mental breakdown, but you still can't get it out of your head that they. Why did they do this? They did it on purpose. Didn't they think it would hurt me so bad? They. You just keep ruminating that over and over in your head. It's really one of the hardest ways to cut, ways to lose somebody and to come to terms with it. And it's absolutely rampant in the military and the fire service. So this fellow, Jeff, started an organization to have classes to mental health classes to not only prevent it, but also the families are the ones that are left to kind of pick up the pieces and hurting and try to figure it out. So. And I actually gave a couple of classes with him because I've experienced it intimately and personally. So I know what you go through, what it's. How horrible it is, you know. So, yeah, so whenever I get book sales or appearances and stuff like that, I give some money to that particular organization, and I'm actually going to get out there. I, you know, it took me a while to get back on my feet with the tv show and especially after losing my brother and start to do some type of payback, and that's. The show is going to be that, too. And also do seminar. I'm getting out there again. I have done them at FDIC prior to 911, exercise, health, nutrition, post fire recovery, but I haven't done it in a bunch of years. The books kind of took me in another direction, but. And like you, I want to still stay in touch with the fire service. So I'm getting back out there doing seminars on exercise, nutrition for firefighters, post fire recovery, certainly cooking. And now I'm just also going to do some PTSD seminars, if you don't mind.

Speaker A: I'm going to make sure that the new executive director for the first responder center for Excellence, who happens to be a retired FDNY firefighter by the name of Frank Lieb and.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I know who it is.

Speaker A: All right, well, the frce goes around the country and does various seminars and stuff. If you don't mind, I'll share your name and your contact information with Frank. And as they're. As they're starting to develop some of these road shows again, he may be able to reach out to you to see if you want to help with some of these presentations.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, for a few reasons. And, you know, it's. I have never met Frank personally, but I did, about two months ago, I did a wellness firefighter podcast on suicide. Not the books and everything, basically, whole suicide, losing my brother and stuff like that. He. I sent it to him, he watched it, and he sent back, and he said he lost his brother about ten or 15 years ago. Not, I don't think, to suicide, but he goes, I know the kind of grief you're dealing with. And I said, hey, nice to meet you. If you get a chance. But I'd be reinforced if you mentioned it to him.

Speaker A: Okay, I certainly will. Yeah.

Speaker B: Because, you know, in the fire service, one of the things is, yeah, they'll have an expert in fitness and nutrition, but he was never a firefighter.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: He doesn't know the language. He doesn't know. I did one for Chief Brunosini in Phoenix.

Speaker A: That's what I like about the first responder center for excellence. I mean, not only they do with the physical part, but they're dealing with behavioral health issues. You know, they're dealing with the gamut. They're looking at the whole person, if you will, through the first responder center for excellence. And it's one of the reasons when they stood it up, I volunteered to do grunt work for them. So I had the opportunity to travel across the country, and my employer, provident, took care of paying for me to do this. It was part of their give back to the frce, and I did logistical work. I'd show up a day before and make sure the classroom we were going to be in had everything we needed to be, pick up people from the speakers from the airports, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, look, I'm really sorry to hear about your brother. The whole behavioral health thing has touched me. I started doing my own class a couple of years ago, and I quickly want to share this with you. July 10 of last year, a gentleman I knew professionally, and we never broke bread with one another. We never drank with one another, but I knew him professionally. Called me at about a quarter till five, and we were on the phone with one another for 1 hour and ten minutes, and the phone went dead. So I attempted to call him back, and I called, like, three times. It went straight to voicemail. I sent text messages, and he didn't respond to those. So I called the. The 911 center located in the county where he lived. And to make a long story short, eventually the police went there, the fire department broke down the door, and he had died from suicide. I was the last person he talked to. I was an absolute wreck for the better part of three days because I kept running through my mind. Did he say something that I missed?

Speaker B: Yeah. That's what you start thinking. Yeah.

Speaker A: He didn't say anything negative the entire time we were on the phone with one another. He didn't speak poorly of anybody. We talked about everything from ambulance calls back in the 1970s to the current day. I mean, all of it. And I went to his viewing, and his sister said to me, you have to know, the reason he called you was he knew you would know what to do. And it took me a minute to think of it, and she said, he didn't want to lay in his apartment for days. He knew that you would know to call somebody else to check on him. I've talked to his daughter several times, and there were warning signs there, but nobody realized the warning signs till after the fact.

Speaker B: Well, nobody thinks I understand what you're saying. And yes, there was warning signs with my brother, too. And it's easy to say armchair quarterback after, because, you know, whenever I've talked in front of people about this whole suicide issue, you know, you can't say, first question people ask is, why were they getting divorced? Did they have financial issues? Did they have issues at work? Was their house getting foreclosed? Well, okay, so let's say divorce. Well, so does everybody that gets divorced take their life? No, not everybody that gets relationship issue takes their life. Not everybody has financial issues, takes their life. Somewhere down the line, it gets worse and worse, and there's a mental breakdown, and then there's a complete, like, why, why in the world would your friend lay that at your doorstep? Like, you're going to do me a favor. I'm going to take my life. You're going to be griefed out to the max, but I really trust you to take care of. I could take. I'd rather take, like you, I'm sure, a caring person. I'd rather take care of you when you're alive. So let's work this out. But one of the things I look for, too, very important, is they call it dark humor, gallows humor, firehouse humor. When individual or firefighter completely loses a sense of humor in every area. I think that's the beginnings of a warning sign. Like nothing's comical anymore. Nothing I can't joke about. And that's. It's the beginning. But how, you know, guy could have no sense of humor for the rest of his life, never take his nights. So I don't know. I mean. I mean, I applaud everybody that's given these seminars, but it's so hard to sit a class down that's not ready to hear it. You know, if I ever give a seminar, and I hope I do in PTSD, because I know the thinking from my brother. And listen, I've had some other grievous losses in my life, including 911, you know, and I get my moments of depression and. But years ago, I lost my mother to a fire when I first came on the fire department, and believe me, after that, I didn't want to act on it, but I didn't want to live anymore. So now I don't know how far down the road other things might have happened to take me, further down the road than maybe to act on it. So great. Thankfully, I never acted on it, but, you know, so if I ever gave a seminar, I would guarantee if I was at FDIC in a room full of 500 people and doing a PTSD, mental health wellness, you know, I'd say, all right, any firefighters out there, if you're thinking of taking your life, raise your hand. I'd be willing to betting 600. There's maybe one guy that's having a lot of problems, but he's not going to raise his hand in front of 600 people. He's not going to say, yeah, you know what? I've thought about it. I bought a rope. No, they're not going to do that. They cover it up and they cover it up well. Unfortunately, that's why people like you and I who care, it's hard to. They cover it up so well.

Speaker A: So the last part of my class, I actually sit down on a chair and I talk about the times that I reached out and spoke with a mental health expert during my career and trying to make people understand it's okay to talk to somebody. I mean, you know, it's. I don't care if you call your chaplain, you call a friend, it's okay to talk to somebody. And I just hope that if someone has started down that rabbit hole, that they'll pick the phone up and call somebody. And we're way off topic now, but it sounds like you and I could do an entire webinar that could last an hour or more just on this subject.

Speaker B: We could. And that's why, you know, for people, that's why I like, in particular to give this seminar, because somebody gets up there from a mental health place and has never experienced suicide. They can't get out there to a bunch of firefighters and first responders and say, you know, I know how you feel. I lost my Aunt Connie to cancer. No, it's not the same. I lost my uncle Tony to a car. No, it's not the same. You have to have experience it. And a firefighter like myself, having experienced it with another firefighter, it's just, you know, you can talk to talk with them. And maybe, like I said, that's how I would start it. I would ask, and I know nobody would raise their hand, but I'd say, I bet you out here in these four or 500 people that we have here, I'm not saying you're contemplating suicide, but you got a bunch of life crisis is going on, relationship, work, money, finance, something going on, and it may unravel worse, and then all of a sudden this option is going to pull up on the radar screen and at no time can that ever be an option. That's the way I look at it. You know, you get divorced, you're going to lose your house, get in question at the job, you don't get along with your boss. Yeah, a bunch of stuff's piling up on you, but you're like, and listen, I can only speak for my brother. I mean, if I would have told him ten years before that happened that he would be like, what? You know? Yeah. And I went to a clinic, out in a PTSD clinic, and there was mostly policemen. And I've always said this, you know, here's a police officer, stresses of his job, family, life, money, whatever, and he decides to, if I ever took a gun and aimed it at a off duty police officer, he'd throw me down, take the gun away, you know, he'd be like, what? Are you crazy? You never point a gun at somebody, yet they put a gun on a kitchen table, point in your head and take their life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and, and so somewhere something came, things were coming apart, you know what I mean? That's when they. Things is coming apart and you. But that the can do attitude of a fire gotta get you in trouble. I can figure it out. I could figure it out. I'll figure it out. No, I don't need to talk. I could figure it out, you know, until you can figure it out, and then, then you have the mental breakdown. That's what I say. I don't. No, people say suicide is very selfish, that they, they didn't think about anybody else or how it would hurt. No, they're gone for a brief moment, they're mentally gone. And that nobody would in their right mind would put a gun to their head or jump off a bridge or. And that's the answer right there, that at that particular moment, they're not in their right mind. And if somebody tackle them, hold them until that it passed like this too shall pass. It'll pass. The feeling will pass.

Speaker A: I'm glad now that we're paying attention to it, we're doing more to educate first responders, we're doing more to get first responders to understand that it's okay to pick the phone up and talk to somebody. And we just got to keep. We're going to take one bite of that apple at a time and just keep plugging away at it.

Speaker B: I'd like to think if they hear it from someone of their own like me, and then they see, that's what I told the cops out at that thing. Cause I was a wreck at the time. I couldn't even speak five senses without crying. And, you know, it was two feyremen and ten cott. What I said in this group to these cops, I go, you see me? I don't look like a weak person. I'm not. But I go, look at the mess I am because of what my brother did. I go, if you guys have even considered this, this is what it does to people, your wife, your kids, your family. You know, just think about that. I know at that moment you might not be thinking about it, but while you're tossing it around in your head, like, my only way out of this circumstance is to take my life, you better think long and hard that you're not going to leave them. And I say this to five, I'm dying to say it, at a seminar, the person taking his life, I don't know why they think they're making some bold statement like, excuse the language, f the world, f my wife. You know, my wife's divorcing me. I'll fix her. So all of that anger turns into self murder. But you know what? The guy takes his life, people cry. The wife, yeah, I can't believe he did it. And the world goes on. The world goes on without you. So you didn't make this bold statement. So turn all of that negative energy of, I'm going to get back at this one or f the world. Or, you know, turn it into something positive. Turn it into something positive. Take up a hobby, a sport, a craft. Help other people. Volunteer. You know, go take boxing lessons if you got to take your anger out to go take boxing lessons.

Speaker A: So. So to our listeners, I know we got off topic, and I'm not going to apologize for getting off topic, because what we just talked about is damned important to anybody that's listening to us. So if you're having problems, you think things are turned upside down, pick the phone up and call somebody, talk to somebody so you can unload and feel better about things. So with that, Joe, I want to move on, okay? Because I, and I will definitely reach out to Frank to make sure that he has your information. So, Joe, as we end the end of our podcast. Do you have any worldly advice to offer our listeners?

Speaker B: Oh, I'll get choked up. And we actually could do a whole show on 911. I have an unbelievable story about 911 and I hope Ed we get to do a show about 911. But the way that's my message I guess is see if I can do this without getting too choked up. But what, you know, what I saw at 911 and how the fire community of the United States, eventually the world and the communities came together to honor the firefighters that lost their lives. Honor the people that lost their lives. All of this craziness was in the name of terrorism. You killed more than 3000 people and 343 firemen and police officers and port authority, all in the name of some crazy religious statement. And the way the world came together after that. So the best advice I could give to firefighters young and old is that especially now that I'm older. There's Kenny Chesney has a song called don't blink. He's interviewing an older man who's like 100 years old and asking for him for advice. Yeah. And his advice is don't blink. Don't blink. 100 years goes faster than you think. So a career in the fire service, it goes faster than you think while it's happening and most people don't embrace it. Yeah, you're gonna have lousy voices. You're gonna see some terrible things. Like a lieutenant told my brother and other once he goes, kid, we ain't in the business of painting sunsets. Yeah, there's St. Patty's days in uniforms, but we're in the business of loss and death. And so you're gonna see some terrible things, you're gonna experience terrible things. You're gonna lose close people and that career is going to come and go. So those meals that you sit and have the laughs that you have. And one of the things that guy said in that Kenny Chesney song is because treat people nice. I get the firehouse humor and stuff like that. And I did a whole seminar on even that. I get the humor. I get the ball busting, if you will excuse the language. It's part of the thing. But how about throwing a compliment once in a while or doing something nice? You know, we're only in this career for a short period of time, rolling in this life for a short period. Like the guy said, don't blink. 100 years goes faster than you think. And you're going to look back, maybe have regrets about somebody that you didn't treat nice or give a coin, word to or something like that. So make a meal at the meal. Nothing wrong complimenting the chef. You don't have to kiss him and make out what would be just a decent compliment, you know, and hold back on the insults, you know, really think about something before you put it out there, because once it's out there, you can't take it back. And I think that's like how we'd all like to be remembered, you know? So that's my advice. Don't give up the firehouse tradition of eating meals together. Step up and cook. Step up and clean. You know, it's always about doing the right thing by the people you work with and whatever other dreams you have in your life, go out and go for it. Look at me. I got a book published doing a YouTube tv show. It's all out there for anybody to get, you know, and then the struggling side of the firefighters that happen to be listening to the show, you can hear me getting choked up just from, you know, losing my brother like that. So you don't want to do that to somebody else. Keep that in your as a circuit breaker to stop you from doing this. And I know what you're saying.

Speaker A: Call.

Speaker B: And they always say that. My brother knew he could have called me and he didn't. My other friend, Tony Perella, fireman I worked with, took his life. He could have called me. He didn't. Your friend could have said, yeah, listen, I'm at the wit's end, so I don't know if the right thing is, if I believe people is having trouble and they don't want it is almost like you got to intervene and say, listen, this divorce, I think, is bothering you a lot more than you land on. How about we get a cup of coffee?

Speaker A: Don't be afraid to ask the question, are you okay? And do I have to worry about you harming yourself?

Speaker B: But they're not going to tell you they are. Even if they are, I believe that it, the thing to do is say, what's going on right now? What's going on with your foreclosure, what's going on on the job. I don't know. I hate that lieutenant. I can't. Okay, well, listen, let's look at solutions. And one of the solutions isn't taking your life, right? And that's the one thing you got to put on these people that are bouncing this around as an option. There is going to be a solution. There's a solution to a divorce. There's a solution to get even getting fired. You know, maybe you could be a firefighter someplace that you don't like the lieutenant on your ship, switch ship, transfer to another fire. You know, let's come up with a, like my friend did with the kitchen tablets at the kitchen table. Let's come up with a solution for this. And honestly, sometimes there isn't a solution. The solution is, you know what? You're going to have to gut this one out. You know, whether it's a divorce, whether it's a foreclosure, you're going to have to gut it out. But we're here to back you up. You might have to gut it out.

Speaker A: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to talk to me today and for our listeners. And again, I know we got a little off topic near the end, but that's fine. That's fine. I make no apologies for that because of the topic that we talked about. So I want you to know I look forward to our webinar on June 6 at 07:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. To sign up for that webinar and view our previously quartered webinars, visit the link in our episode notes share this podcast with your colleagues. You can send them our subscription link, also found in the show notes. Lastly, to our listeners, if you have any questions or need additional information, or if you have an idea for a future webinar or podcast, please send us an email at info@providentins.com Station 19 two signing off. Until next time, stay safe for your family. State.