Station 1902

[00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to station 1902 podcast. I'm your host, Ed Mann, director of training and Education.

[00:09] I want to welcome you back to our listeners and thank you for your continued support.

[00:14] I also welcome our first time listeners.

[00:17] I recently had the pleasure and opportunity to attend a class that our guest Zach Kirsch taught on autism awareness for first responders.

[00:27] I knew we had to get him on the show to discuss how first responders can better connect with and support autistic individuals during emergencies.

[00:36] Zach, before we dive into the questions, tell our listeners about your service and your background as a first responder.

[00:43] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Ed.

[00:45] My name is Zach Kirsch. I'm currently a captain in the Orwigsburg Fire Department, Schuylkill County,

[00:51] Pennsylvania. Started my career 19 years ago just outside of Nashville, Tennessee as a volunteer. A junior firefighter at the age of 14.

[01:01] Been doing it ever since volunteering.

[01:04] Had a brief stint in a career path down in Tennessee and then moved back to Pennsylvania in 2021.

[01:12] We had our son Noah,

[01:14] and I kind of gave up the career route so I could be home with him,

[01:18] help my wife and enjoy the holidays and weekends off with my son.

[01:24] And I've been volunteering ever since in the role I'm currently in.

[01:29] Also a fire services communication instructor at the 911 center, part time here in Schuylkill county. And it's my 15th year doing so there.

[01:38] As far as my background, you know, I have my associate's degree in fire science out of Volunteer State and just have a passion for, you know, first responding specifically to the fire service and any emergency services.

[01:51] Speaker A: Great. So Zach, what personal or professional experience has led you to create this training for first responders? Why did you get into it?

[02:01] Speaker B: So. Absolutely. So I have our son Noah. He's five years old.

[02:05] He was diagnosed with level two autism a few years ago.

[02:09] And I also responded to a few calls involving special needs individuals, specifically to autism,

[02:16] autism, individuals going missing.

[02:19] And we'd go on searches for them.

[02:21] And I noticed that there was a missing piece when we would go out searching for them,

[02:27] those individuals and people didn't know how to deal with it. People didn't know what they might experience that might be a little bit challenging for the average responder to go and attempt to find this individual.

[02:41] So I saw a need for it. A couple of my co colleagues, also directly affected by autism,

[02:48] also saw a need in it. We sat down, we created the class,

[02:52] debuted it September of 2025,

[02:56] had a massive turnout. And ever since we've had Places all over the state and even outside of the state of Pennsylvania, reaching out for us to come do a class.

[03:04] And it's been a huge success.

[03:06] Speaker A: Well, I can tell you I learned a great deal in the two hour class I sat through that you did in Lewistown here a month or so ago.

[03:16] So I'm glad that you saw a need for it and you decided to put it together because I certainly learned a great deal in a two hour class.

[03:25] Speaker B: So.

[03:26] Speaker A: And this kind of piggybacks with the previous question. So why is this awareness training such an important topic for fire service, ems, law enforcement and even dispatchers?

[03:37] Speaker B: Yeah, so like you said, it starts with the dispatchers and even starting with them till the end of each call.

[03:44] I feel as though emergency response and being prepared plays a very vital role in ensuring, like the safety and the well being of all individuals,

[03:54] especially those with autism, that you might be responding to help.

[03:59] And it's just very crucial that we as responders and dispatchers, as the first line of defense,

[04:05] recognize early on that you might be dealing with someone on the autism spectrum. And you're going to face additional challenges and vulnerabilities during those emergency situations. And we must adapt on how we're going to respond and how we're going to deal with those situations to provide the best service and ultimately have the best outcome.

[04:25] Speaker A: So what are some of the common responder assumptions or habits that can unintentionally make a call more difficult for an autistic individual?

[04:35] Speaker B: So some of those that we most commonly come across is that you'll get the response from said individual that you may be expecting.

[04:44] You call their name, they answer like you're used to hearing, or you tell them to do a simple command as if you're on a traffic stop or, you know, you're an EMS professional and you're asking simple questions for their history and they're not responding like you're used to hearing.

[05:01] That can make it very, very challenging. And some of those can be interpreted as non compliance being defiance or escalation during restraint or detainment.

[05:14] You also always have the flight risk or the wandering, the bolting, the elopement.

[05:19] But the big thing is the inability to respond to verbal commands and that major disruption from the sirens, the radios, the flashing lights, and just all of the tools that we have that might be overwhelming and overstimulating to the individual that you're responding to.

[05:38] Speaker A: So ultimately a first responder approaches somebody who's autistic.

[05:43] The first responder doesn't know the individual's autistic.

[05:46] So they're asking the typical questions. We might ask your name and the person doesn't respond. So right away we assume wrongly that, you know, it could be drugs or they're just simply being non compliant,

[06:01] which kind of escalates the situation then.

[06:04] Speaker B: That's correct? Yes, sir.

[06:06] Speaker A: Okay.

[06:07] All right, so what are some of the de escalation techniques that every responder should know and be able to use immediately if they suspect they're dealing with an individual who's autistic?

[06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, some. So some common de escalation techniques that are very easy to go by is just using the tools that you have,

[06:26] using the caregiver or the parent guardian engagement. They're the best tool that you have. They know that person the best, always including them,

[06:35] finding out what that child or individual really likes.

[06:38] An example I always use in our class, My son loves the show Bluey. If we need his attention or we need him to really pay attention to what we're doing or attract him to us, we know that we can play the Bluey theme song.

[06:52] So just really taking a step back, seeing the big situation and understanding what that child or individual, like I said, might like and not sensory overloading them,

[07:03] you know, allowing them to respond is going to get you the best answers. And sometimes you might just have to use writing tools. You may have to use iPad devices.

[07:12] That's how they communicate or sign language. You just need to find out each individual's niche or how they do things.

[07:20] Because no one autistic individual is the same as another. They're complete opposites.

[07:26] So you may have some things that may be similar.

[07:30] However,

[07:31] you know, that can change in an instance where Noah could be completely different than an autistic individual that you might meet on a call five minutes from now.

[07:40] Speaker A: Okay, so can you walk us through a realistic emergency scenario and explain how a trained responder's approach would differ from somebody that's untrained? Yep.

[07:53] Speaker B: So one of the ones I like to use most, because it's a very common call we get, is a missing child that may have autism. They elope from their house, they wander off.

[08:04] So I give an example just using my son, 5 year old, missing level 2 autistic child.

[08:10] The mother last saw him in the kitchen.

[08:13] He, she took our eye off him for just a second. He wandered out the front door. They found the front gate open.

[08:19] It's very important to know the majority of autistic individuals attract to water.

[08:25] Always, always, always, always check the waterway. If you have one near,

[08:30] don't get tunnel vision and just say, oh, he's in the woods because there's a wood line.

[08:34] So if we're responding to say said missing person from a home and they have a pond up front and wooded area in the back,

[08:43] you want to put some of your responders obviously up by that pond to start and search the area and then also put some in the back.

[08:51] That also goes to having enough resources and getting them on the road early.

[08:56] Don't be the person that says, ah, I don't need them. It doesn't hurt to get a dive team on the way. It doesn't hurt to get a drone team, a dog team, a search team, fire, police, whatever that might be on the road early and then you can just cancel them.

[09:10] We all like to get complacent and say, I can handle it. Well, unfortunately, sometimes we can't and then we're playing a catch up game and it ultimately results in fatalities because these children wander off to waterways or in traffic or in hazards and then they end up being found deceased,

[09:26] sadly enough.

[09:27] Speaker A: So if I remember correctly, one of the statistics that you shared with us in the class is,

[09:33] what was it? 95% of autistic children 14 years and younger are typically found or will be found deceased in water somewhere.

[09:46] Speaker B: Yep. So, so it's 91% of deaths in children ages 14 and younger with autism are due to drowning. And on top of that,

[09:56] sadly enough,

[09:57] those with autism are 106, 60 times more likely to drown than neurotypical peers.

[10:04] Speaker A: So, so, and, and, and I remember asking this question, but I want our listeners to understand this. What is it?

[10:10] Why water? What, what attracts somebody who's autistic, especially 14 and younger, to water? What?

[10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so it could be many different things.

[10:19] It could be the sensation, it could be just the curiosity of looking at, watching the,

[10:24] the water move, the fixation of it.

[10:27] My son Noah, he likes pressure. He likes weighted blanket on him, things like that. So when he's in the water, he feels that pressure. He absolutely loves water. He attracts to water all of the time.

[10:37] If we're around water, he's going towards it. And that's something we have to be cognizant of.

[10:42] Even just the curiosity, like I said, of going up, looking and then they accidentally slip and fall in. And whether they know how to swim or not, that overbearing of emotion, they may forget how to swim once they're in the water, which then causes a panic and then ultimately they end up drowning.

[10:59] Speaker A: Okay. And the reason I asked the question is I Want our first responders to keep this in the back of their mind,

[11:05] get people to water,

[11:08] don't delay.

[11:10] So Zach, how can departments better prepare before the call ever happens? Through pre planning,

[11:20] community outreach, or even family education.

[11:23] Speaker B: So I would say the first thing obviously is take some sort of autism awareness training. Obviously I'll be a little bit biased because I have have ours first do autism training.

[11:32] And we've had a very good turnout and very good response to what our class is. But there's many offered in Pennsylvania and I encourage you to take as many as you can because if you go to one of those classes, I hope you learn at least one thing from each of them.

[11:49] I attend as many as I can and I have my own program,

[11:52] so that's where I would start. Secondly, to that question,

[11:56] include your dispatch center. So in Schuylkill county, we've started a emergency call log essentially involving autistic individuals or special needs.

[12:07] So we have site notes or site dangers put in.

[12:10] My address says we have a five year old, nonverbal, level two autistic child. We have the caretaker information,

[12:18] he's attracted to water,

[12:20] and then we also have where his hiding place or safe place is and also what he likes to help those responders.

[12:28] Something we did in our local community back in April for autism awareness month was a sensory friendly touch. A truck encouraged all those with special needs or sensory deficits to come out,

[12:41] check it out.

[12:42] And we had about 200 kids from multiple different communities come out. And those that were comfortable with doing so, we had them fill out that sheet for our dispatch center.

[12:52] Even if they lived out of our county and we turned them into said county that they lived in. And we were able to get that to the dispatch center. So that early on,

[13:02] at least if we get toned out or dispatched to a call at their address,

[13:07] we have some sort of pre alert or indicator that hey, we might need to cut the sirens off. Hey, if we have a house fire, this child's safe space is their closet.

[13:16] We might need the VEIs if safely to do so, or if we can be aggressive to do so in that area first, if he's missing or she is missing. So that would be my recommendation.

[13:29] Obviously training,

[13:32] don't get complacent and think you know how to deal with something because things are forever changing with your communities and what individuals might be dealing with.

[13:40] Speaker A: So that kind of leads into the next question.

[13:43] And so I got to ask this in between.

[13:46] Have you gotten any pushback from 911 centers or county emergency management offices?

[13:53] Where you've suggested that they take this pre plan information and put it into their system for the departments within their counties.

[14:03] Speaker B: I've had no negative pushback.

[14:05] Myself and two other dispatchers, one being our training director,

[14:09] presented this presentation at the APCO conference, which is a conference for all the 911 directors and some dispatcher supervisors.

[14:19] And the room was packed with all of the directors and such from Pennsylvan.

[14:25] And all we got was positive feedback. We had multiple emails for classes or recommended classes for us to come to their center, teach them,

[14:35] and I can speak for multiple counties in this area that have said since put different protocols in place and questions, pre alert questions to be asked when they find out they are dealing with a autistic or special needs individual, which is very cool to see.

[14:56] And some of those centers have came to three or four of our classes, which is incredible. So no negative pushback.

[15:04] It's been all positive. And if you look at the situation,

[15:07] there really is no negative. You're just helping the community.

[15:11] Speaker A: That's great to hear.

[15:14] And this leads now directly into the next question. How can dispatchers help set the tone for a safer response before units even arrive on the scene?

[15:24] Speaker B: So being prepared,

[15:26] having that pre plan or questions ready to go,

[15:30] some of the questions that should be asked,

[15:33] we currently have hanging on our consoles at Schuylkill County911 and I know other counties have since done this. You know, knowing if that patient is verbal or nonverbal,

[15:43] is there a parent or a caretaker there? Can they respond to their name, you know, finding that hiding place and ultimately you know, how they communicate and how they respond to that stressful situation.

[15:56] Different stemming methods and are they drawn to water, wooded areas, high traffic areas?

[16:02] Just asking the questions that you can during said responders are responding to the call can make that emergency so much more smoother. And it really just shows how important the 911 dispatchers and what a vital piece they are to any emergency.

[16:19] And not just these that we're speaking of.

[16:23] It's just very, very good information that they can obtain to help the responders. So just a couple of those questions that I went over. Will, will 100% help? Police, fire, medical, search teams,

[16:36] you name it.

[16:38] Speaker A: So I want to tip my hat to any 911,

[16:41] telecommunicators, dispatchers, whatever you want to call them.

[16:45] I know as a former fire chief,

[16:48] I depended on them a lot of times for a lot of valuable information before while I'm responding from my home to the scene,

[16:57] which ultimately made a significant difference in the outcome of the emergency because they were on the ball and could answer questions to questions that I had.

[17:10] So Chris or Zach, as you travel the and you've done a lot of classes in Pennsylvania, you've done them outside of the state as well.

[17:19] What are some of the biggest lessons you've learned from delivering the training to departments,

[17:25] regardless of where you've delivered them?

[17:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I say this in the most professional, respectful way. It's just how uneducated people are about autism,

[17:36] myself included.

[17:38] Before I started this program and before Noah was diagnosed,

[17:43] completely honest,

[17:44] I didn't know anything about it. I knew very little.

[17:48] I knew that they may had some communication differences, but I didn't know the details and how the response would differ and how I would need to adapt.

[17:59] It's very, very important knowing what I do now that when I am out teaching it and my co instructors are with me, that we make sure that everyone is aware of what autism is.

[18:12] First off,

[18:13] I know Ed, you can vouch for this.

[18:15] The first half of our class is deep diving what autism is and what you might see different stemming methods, things like that.

[18:21] And then the second half is how to respond to it.

[18:25] But it's very important you pick up on that early on and be aware. Be autism aware,

[18:32] not only for your community,

[18:34] but for what you might have down the road or, you know, you might have a family member that that might be dealing with autism that you might not ever know.

[18:43] So it's just the said topic and not being aware or the education on it.

[18:50] Speaker A: So this kind of leads to another.

[18:54] Most of the time when we think of autism,

[18:57] we think a smaller, you know, children.

[19:01] Obviously if you have an autistic adult,

[19:04] you know, somebody that's 6 foot 2 goes 225.

[19:10] The safety of the first responder is certainly a little different there than it would be with a child.

[19:19] Have you come across incidents or know of incidents where departments had to deal with an adult who was autistic and things got physical because of the lack of training on the part of the department?

[19:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually got a call just a few weeks ago from some friends in Tennessee.

[19:40] They responded to a medical call involving an autistic individual's mother.

[19:47] The autistic individual was 19 years old.

[19:50] He was a bigger individual.

[19:52] Not sure of, you know, the size, but he was a bigger individual.

[19:56] And for those of you that don't know any child, not just autism,

[20:00] but we'll say son are very protective of their mothers,

[20:04] we all are.

[20:06] But heighten that with autistic individuals that rely on their mothers for daily life.

[20:12] When they think that emergency responders are hurting their mothers and don't understand why they're doing what they're doing,

[20:19] it can pose a hazard. And not a hazard as in they're meaning to cause that hazard. They don't understand what's going on.

[20:29] So the police arrived on scene to assist.

[20:32] They actually had some training on how to deal with it and they were able to attract his attention away from the mother, give him a task to do, a simple task.

[20:45] Hey, can you go get mom's purse?

[20:47] That got him away enough that they could get the mother back to where she needed to be stable so that they could get her to the hospital. Excuse me.

[20:57] One thing to know is any child, when they're upset, are stronger.

[21:03] I will say, speaking for my five year old, when he is upset or having a meltdown,

[21:09] his strength goes from a five year old strength to a 30 year old man's strength, it feels like.

[21:16] So I can't wait to see what that is when he's 19, 20 years old.

[21:21] But it can be very hard, but you gotta have patience to deal with it. And you can't just rely on some sort of physical force on some sort of medication to knock them down or say,

[21:32] but know how to de escalate that. And our training really deep dives how to do that, especially for the law enforcement side. We have a law enforcement officer on our staff that has many trainings in that and has a son that's autistic.

[21:47] So he really knows how to do it and deal with it. But each individual is going to be different, so it's very important.

[21:56] Speaker A: And the situation you just described,

[21:58] we've kind of focused on an individual with autism being the patient. In this case it was the autistic individual's mother was actually the patient and they needed to treat the mother.

[22:13] But to your point,

[22:15] the son was very protective so they had to do something to be able to separate them in order to treat the mother.

[22:21] Speaker B: So I,

[22:22] yeah, at that point you're gonna, you're gonna have basically two patients to deal with if you look at it as a big horizon. But you've gotta adapt to it. That's the biggest word I can say.

[22:33] And you know this, I say it a thousand times during our presentation other than check the water is you got to adapt to whatever emergency you're responding and maybe change your response approach depending on what you're being dealt with.

[22:47] Speaker A: So the next question pretty much has already answered itself. If people paid attention to this since the beginning of the podcast.

[22:55] And it's how can autism awareness training improve not only patient outcomes, but also responder confidence and scene safety? I think we've answered that with all of the answers to all the previous questions.

[23:09] Wouldn't you agree?

[23:10] Speaker B: I would agree.

[23:11] Speaker A: Yes,

[23:13] it would. Certainly,

[23:14] you know,

[23:15] unless somebody's been sleeping. Since the beginning of this podcast,

[23:18] that question has been answered through all the answers to the other questions. So I want to. The next question is if a department wants to bring first new autism training to their members,

[23:32] what should your first step be? And this is an opportunity for you to promote your company and or any other company for that matter.

[23:43] But the training's important.

[23:45] What should they be doing to take that first step to get the training?

[23:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So first I can speak for first Dual autism training.

[23:53] We are on Facebook right now. You can find us on Facebook at First do autism training. And that spelled out D U E.

[24:01] A lot of people accidentally put D O Firstdo Autism training. You can reach to me by my email, which is firstdoautismmail.com and then my phone number is on there, which is 570-840-0991 and that'll be posted as well.

[24:23] And it's on the website if you, if you don't forget that or if you do forget that rather.

[24:28] But the first step would be just reaching out.

[24:30] We are more than happy to bring our training to anyone.

[24:34] Currently there is no charge for us to do so now with the cost of things and the world we live in, eventually that might change depending on travel and things like that.

[24:46] However, currently there, there is no charge for it and that's very important to us.

[24:52] You have some people that sit behind a desk and comment on social media platforms that the people associated with first do autism are only doing it for gain or whatnot.

[25:05] We accept no funding, no money right now.

[25:09] And that is not our plan. We do it to promote autism awareness and we do it so that individuals with autism with the autism spectrum disorder or that are on the spectrum have a fighting chance during an emergency.

[25:25] I want to know that if my wife and I are traveling with Noah throughout Pennsylvania or anywhere in that matter that officers, EMS personnel, firefighters,

[25:36] or if he wanders off search personnel know how to deal with that situation. And it's not a catch up game where ultimately he may be found deceased or something,

[25:47] the inevitable might be happen because there's a lack of training.

[25:52] So reach out if you're, you know, in a different state and we can't get out there when you'd like us to.

[25:59] There's other training programs that are for autism awareness. I can't speak on kind of how their program goes, but I can find one for your department.

[26:10] But we'll do everything that we can to bring our program to you and to your communities and to all the communities around.

[26:17] Speaker A: So those links for all those websites and stuff and contact information will be in the session notes when this podcast goes live, so people will be able to find them within those links.

[26:30] So I do have to ask this. So you're doing this for free.

[26:34] Does your organization accept any donations to help defray some of the costs because you're doing this for free?

[26:43] Speaker B: We do accept donations.

[26:45] I will ask that you hold those.

[26:47] We should get our nonprofit EIN number this week, hopefully by Friday. All the paperwork submitted, everything's good to go there. It's all been approved. Just waiting on that number.

[26:59] So we would wait for that to come in, obviously.

[27:02] And if you feel the need, want or would like to. Absolutely,

[27:07] we would accept it. And it goes right into autism awareness.

[27:10] Um, it, it doesn't go, you know, to us or any other trainers, it would specifically go right towards first do and promoting autism awareness.

[27:20] Speaker A: So when this goes live, when you get your federal employer ID number, I want you to do me a favor, send me an email,

[27:27] okay? Because I want, I want to be one of the first to donate.

[27:30] Speaker B: I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

[27:33] Speaker A: So Zach, as we near the end of the podcast, do you have any final thoughts or words of wisdom for our listeners?

[27:40] Speaker B: Yeah, so if I could just throw just a few things. I know people are probably tired of listening to me, but please, please, please, please be patient.

[27:49] Always pick up on any early signs of someone that might have autism during your response.

[27:55] And please continue to expand your knowledge of not only the autism spectrum disorder, but mental health in general. If you see a class,

[28:05] even though it's not a hands on run and gun class,

[28:09] go take it because it does make a difference.

[28:12] Have cross agency communication so that all responders in your area know where you might encounter an emergency involving a special needs individual.

[28:22] If you come across an autistic occupant or special needs occupant,

[28:27] see if your county or your 911 center that supports you will add a site note so that you know for future calls that you have that and you could be prepared even more on your way there and just be the best responder you can be for those in need.

[28:42] All you can do is the best you can do is the best thing I can say,

[28:46] and I like to say a quote to close my,

[28:49] my trainings. And I'll say it, you know,

[28:51] two quotes rather, 100 times. First one's Walt Disney.

[28:55] My wife and I are big Disney people. My son's a big Disney guy.

[29:00] If you can visualize it, if you can dream it, then there's some way to do it.

[29:05] These individuals dream things differently than we do. And I don't like to use the word different because they're different might be normal, whereas our different is normal. Okay?

[29:17] So please, please, please give them the opportunity to do so. And again, we must adapt to what we're responding to. We adapt to all other things, whether that be a verbal domestic that turns physical,

[29:30] a breathing difficulty that turns into a cardiac arrest,

[29:33] a smoke in a house that turns into a full blown structure fire. We adapt to those calls. There is no reason that we should not adapt to a individual that has a special need or autism involved in an emergency that needs to tailor our approach.

[29:48] And there's no reason we can't do so.

[29:50] So just do the best you can do. And just remember,

[29:53] give all those with special needs a fighting chance because they deserve it like anybody else.

[29:59] Speaker A: Thanks, Zach.

[30:00] And I'm going to make a final comment here for our listeners.

[30:06] If you're not in a leadership position,

[30:09] you need to be able to convince your leadership to pay attention to this.

[30:13] Because the last thing I want you to do if you're a firefighter and not in a leadership position is to have to argue with an incident commander because you've taken the training,

[30:24] they haven't. And they don't want to listen to what you've learned when you're dealing with somebody within the autism spectrum. So if you have to be.

[30:36] What's the word I'm going to look for? If you have to be a little indignant and a little pushy as a firefighter to get your leadership to pay attention to it.

[30:45] This is one situation where it's well worth it.

[30:50] So to our listeners, to sign up for any future webinars and we'll be doing a webinar, a live webinar with Zach at the end of July.

[31:00] So keep your eyes open for that invitation.

[31:05] The links to that will be within the session notes for tonight.

[31:10] To sign up for any other webinars or previously recorded webinars, visit our link at the in the episode notes.

[31:17] Share this podcast with your colleagues. They can send them. You can send them our subscription also found in the show notes.

[31:26] And lastly, to our listeners, if you have any questions or need additional information or if you have an idea for a future webinar or podcast, please email us@infoprovidentins.com Station 1902 signing off.

[31:42] Until next time, stay safe for your family's sake.