Station 1902

Ed Mann: Foreign I want to welcome all of our listeners to The Providence Station 1902 podcast.

Ahmed Mann, Director of Training and Education for Providence and today we're going to talk about Fire Chief Burnout and the implications it can have on a fire department and the individual.

As a retired fire chief myself, I know I was headed to burnout and it's one of the reasons, if not the main reason, I decided to retire at the end of 2021 as the chief of my local volunteer fire department.

I'm not going to bore you with my personal story. I'm sure Chief Anderson will hit on many of of the feelings or signs I realized in myself and, and I decided it was time to step aside.

Chief Anderson, please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Will Anderson: Chief Good morning and thanks for certainly having me on on the show.

Will Anderson: My name is Will Anderson. I retired as the Assistant Fire Chief.

Will Anderson: In a career department on the east side of Cleveland, Ohio in February of 2024. Was a 29 year veteran of the fire service.

Will Anderson: I use the term veteran loosely.

Will Anderson: I like to consider myself more of a student of the job.

Second generation firefighter, grew up with it in my blood. Father's retired firefighter, uncle's a retired firefighter. So I knew from a young age what my career path was probably going to be.

And along that way the job provided me so many opportunities to help others, but also to improve and to pay it forward to future generations of fire chiefs and firefighters.

And that's why I like doing these podcasts so much and webinars, because it helps me share both my successes and failures, my experiences, and make the fire service collectively stronger.

Ed Mann: Great Chief, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to be with us today and I look forward to your webinar near the end of May. So Chief, when I read the abstract from your doctoral dissertation, it was apparent that the issue of fire Chief burnout was and is not widely studied.

Why or what drove you to study the matter?

Will Anderson: So the last 10 years of my.

Will Anderson: Career I served as the assistant Fire.

Will Anderson: Chief and it was a executive level administrative role. And I soon learned that, you know, you're pulled in a lot of different.

Will Anderson: Directions every day and you have to.

Will Anderson: Wear a lot of different hats. But during that time I was involved in professional associations for chief fire officers.

Will Anderson: At the local, state and even national levels.

Will Anderson: I got to know people over that.

Will Anderson: Time and noticed that some of the.

Will Anderson: Chiefs changed from when I first met them, oftentimes for the worse, meaning they became distant, unreliable, disengaged. You could tell that something was not Right.

Will Anderson: Or something was going on.

Will Anderson: It was around this time that firefighter behavioral health became a hot topic. I also became involved at the state level with the Ohio Fire Chiefs Association,

Safety, Health and Wellness Committee.

And burnout was one of the topics that we took on. And reviewing that research at the time, there was a lot of research in the mid-2010s on firefighter burnout being related to PTSD, depression, sleep deprivation, other behavioral health issues that people might encounter, but.

Will Anderson: Nothing that I came across examined.

Will Anderson: Fire chiefs, specifically chiefs were either grouped.

Will Anderson: With firefighters or they were grouped with public administrators.

Will Anderson: So as I was doing my doctoral studies, I thought that this would be.

Will Anderson: A unique opportunity to focus specifically on fire chiefs.

Will Anderson: And it was kind of solidified by.

Will Anderson: One chief I knew who really began.

Will Anderson: Struggling and acting unusual to others, he would say.

Will Anderson: I later learned that it stemmed from.

Will Anderson: Ptsd,

and he just couldn't cope with the stressors that the chief's job offered. This led to a host of very, very poor behaviors, maladaptive behaviors on his part that ended up with him losing his job, losing his family, trying to.

Will Anderson: Make sense of his life and its.

Will Anderson: Purpose and how it all came to this.

So I'd like to think that my research was done with him in mind. This is dedicated to him. Mike, I know you're out there, and you know, I love you, brother, and a lot of people love you, and we're always here for you.

And Ed, you know, I believe that.

Will Anderson: At heart, fire chiefs are good people who have a desire to lead and.

Will Anderson: Do what's best for their organizations. But being a fire chief in the.

Will Anderson: 21St century isn't easy.

Will Anderson: And it's my hope that this study.

Will Anderson: And its research will help those fire.

Will Anderson: Chiefs become aware of the problems, but also cope with the stressors that they might be encountering.

Ed Mann: So we're going to focus on the individual here in a couple of minutes. But during the introduction, I mentioned the implications that burnout can have on a fire department and the individual.

Let's focus on the implications that the burnout of a fire chief has or can have on the organization. What were your findings there, Chief?

Will Anderson: Well, in my research, you know, it became very obvious that firefighters are very observant. If their chief is struggling,

they're going to notice it. You know, maybe short term, my research.

Will Anderson: Participants said that the implications weren't really.

Will Anderson: Harmful, but long term, it actually led.

Will Anderson: To widespread burnout, among others in the.

Will Anderson: Organization,

which kind of originated from a loss of morale, frustration. Employees may become disengaged. They may be involved in Deviant work behaviors, whether it's absenteeism, theft, vandalism, dishonesty, harassment,

turnover intentions, maybe they're looking to leave that department or perhaps even leave the career.

Just an overall dissatisfaction with the job.

And one of my study participants recalled a time early in his career where there was an issue with the fire.

Will Anderson: Chief in his department.

Will Anderson: He said that the good crews got better or the good crews got the job done and the bad crews got worse.

Will Anderson: There was no direction.

Will Anderson: There was no plan. The organization more or less became very stagnant,

which caused a whole lot of issues within that department. It was affecting the community's perception of the fire department,

and it was just.

Will Anderson: Not a good situation for the department.

Will Anderson: To be in at the time. So the new chief who took over.

Will Anderson: Had a huge, huge task ahead of.

Will Anderson: Him and struggled initially, but eventually made.

Will Anderson: Progress by working well with his staff.

Will Anderson: Officers in the union, provided a plan.

Will Anderson: Relied on his staff officers for guidance.

Will Anderson: And direction, worked well with the firefighters union, and that organization rebounded. But the whole thing with burnout and how it affects an organization. There was a study done in 2021 that said that $300 billion is lost yearly due to occupational stress and that 83% of employees feel stressed.

Now, this is across multiple occupations,

multiple companies, multiple multiple countries.

But $300 billion because we're stressed out.

Will Anderson: That's a staggering number.

Will Anderson: And there's obviously room for improvement. And it comes down to that strategic leader of that organization having.

Having an understanding of burnout, but also knowing how he or she can cope well with the stressors that that strategic leadership role provides.

Ed Mann: Well, obviously,

burnout's experienced by a real person. And again, I'm not going to get into my own personal story.

I will make a comment that if the old adage it's certainly lonely at the top is certainly true when you're the chief.

You know, the other comment that's made quite often is everybody wants to be the fire chief until it's time to do fire chief things.

So let's focus on the individual. We all know that mental and behavioral health is getting a lot of attention in the fire service. We mentioned earlier the conference that the First Responder center for Excellence just had in Nashville.

So let's talk about the impact that burnout has on the individual.

Will Anderson: Sure. So burnout consists of three dimensions. You have your emotional exhaustion, you have your cynicism, and you have a sense of professional inefficacy.

Will Anderson: You're not getting things done.

Will Anderson: You're not focused. You know, burnout starts small it might be recurring frustrations and setbacks that eventually build up. And then as these build up, it causes stress. And then that stress can evolve into relationship issues, whether it's at home with.

Will Anderson: Your spouses and family members and friends, or in the firehouse with personnel or perhaps city administrators.

Will Anderson: You know, if it's involving personnel, well.

Will Anderson: That can then lead to workplace ostracism.

Will Anderson: And exclusion, which compounds the issue that.

Will Anderson: Stemmed from the stressors and not being.

Will Anderson: Able to cope with, with what was, what that individual was facing.

So then as this goes on, you know, fire chiefs, it looks like, can adopt negative leadership behaviors.

One example would be laissez faire leadership where, where that individual just has checked out. They're, they're there, but they're really not doing anything. They've abdicated all decision making responsibilities and.

Will Anderson: They'Re just filling a seat.

Will Anderson: Other types might be abusive supervision, you know, all things that do not contribute.

Will Anderson: To the success of an organization. And then when the personnel see this.

Will Anderson: You know, firefighters are smart, they're very observant. They then can adopt these same behaviors.

Will Anderson: And that's where the deviant work behaviors.

Will Anderson: May come into play. And all this stems from a lack of awareness and preparation for the job,

not comprehending the challenges that a fire chief is going to face,

the relationship issues resulting because of the stressors,

which then ends up with workplace ostracism and exclusion. You know, my study results showed that almost 70% of my study participants had been ostracized and excluded from their personnel simply because they were the fire chief.

So no, it is, it's lonely at the top.

Will Anderson: You hit the nail on the head.

Will Anderson: At the beginning of the question. But it doesn't have to be like this. You know, there are ways to cope, there are methods to cope, whether it's.

Will Anderson: Learning to be resilient, practicing resiliency, practicing.

Will Anderson: Mindfulness, those types of things that can.

Will Anderson: Reset an individual's mental state.

Will Anderson: So there are opportunities out there to improve oneself.

But sometimes we can be stubborn, Ed, you know that, and I'm guilty of it as well. And it's okay to check ourselves and look in the mirror and say, you know, maybe we need help.

Ed Mann: You know, Chief, I'm glad you mentioned that because I often find myself telling people that it's okay to talk to somebody.

And the one thing that I'm learning, especially recently with the fire services, there are more and more mental health professionals that are focusing on first responders. So, you know, finding help,

it's there.

Sometimes I think it's important that we make sure we're talking to people who understand the job to pick the phone up and call. Just any mental health expert can be helpful,

but I sometimes think we, you really need to focus. You gotta find the individual that understands what it is you're talking about. Would you agree with that?

Will Anderson: I totally would agree with that. And I've even told firefighters much younger.

Will Anderson: Than me who are starting their careers.

Will Anderson: To consider higher education becoming, you know, studying psychology, becoming a psychologist and doing, doing both jobs. But having someone who has done the job, who understands the rigors, the stressors, and the day to day challenges that first responders face.

Will Anderson: Oh my goodness.

Will Anderson: If someone were to be a firefighter, go to school on their days off, become a psychologist, they would have a tremendous, tremendous practice and be contributing in.

Will Anderson: A meaningful way, in a unique way to the fire service to help their peers.

Ed Mann: So, and I'm glad you used the term peer. One of the things that I discovered in the day and a half I was in Nashville last week is a lot of career departments have moved away from the critical incident stress management teams or critical incident stress debriefings, and they've moved to peer support where they're not just reacting to an incident where you need critical incident stress.

There's peer support available for you for all kinds of behavioral health things. And it appears that the International association of Firefighters, the iaff,

has really taken a lead with this with a lot of their programs.

And I know the Denver Fire Department was one of them and now the other one's going to escape me right now. But there were two fire departments represented at the conference that.

Oh, Nashville, where they moved away from critical incident stress management to peer support,

and they're enjoying the benefits of moving to peer support.

Now, I gotta mention, most of our clients are volunteers and I can't see many volunteer departments being able to create a peer support to the level that the career fire departments do.

But what do you think if in an area where there's a lot of volunteer departments, if they did something on a regional basis to try to implement something related to peer support and be in a more proactive role versus the reactive role of critical incident stress,

that would be wonderful.

Will Anderson: And that's where the importance of partnerships and open communication comes into play. You know, whether behavioral health matters, burnout doesn't matter, doesn't care whether it's a.

Will Anderson: Career firefighter or volunteer firefighter.

Will Anderson: We all have similar reactions to atypical.

Will Anderson: Situations that we encounter over the course of our careers, whether paid or volunteer.

Will Anderson: Yes. And that just speaks to the volume or the benefit of organizations like the.

Will Anderson: National Volunteers Firefighter Council, the First Responder.

Will Anderson: Center for Excellence, those organizations that are out there trying to make the situation.

Will Anderson: Better for all firefighters, regardless of whether or not they're paid or volunteer.

Will Anderson: But it takes sound leadership. It takes partnerships, it takes open communication, it takes checking egos at the door.

And the focus has to be on helping the individual. It has to be that.

Will Anderson: That has to be the primary focus.

Will Anderson: And if departments, volunteer, departments, can work.

Will Anderson: In unison for the betterment of all.

Will Anderson: Volunteer firefighters, then those volunteer firefighters are going to have the same healthy benefits.

Will Anderson: And opportunities that career firefighters have currently.

Ed Mann: I have a question here, but I think we pretty much already covered it. I mean,

do you believe the signs of burnout for a fire chief can be crossed over to other first responders, or for that matter, any other job or profession? And I think we've already pretty well addressed or touched on that.

Will Anderson: My answer is a resounding absolutely, yes. So burnout is so widespread that it's.

Will Anderson: Actually recognized by the World Health Organization and they define it as chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully managed.

Will Anderson: So the job, the duties, the titles, it's all irrelevant. It still consists of the emotional exhaustion, the cynicism, the professional inefficacy. It can apply to teachers, doctors, administrators, task level positions, any job, anywhere, at any time.

Will Anderson: And that's where the importance of leadership.

Will Anderson: In those organizations comes into play.

Will Anderson: Understanding that people are human.

Will Anderson: They have more going on than just their job.

Will Anderson: Maybe they're taking care of aging parents.

Will Anderson: Maybe they're taking care of sick, a sick child.

Will Anderson: Maybe they're going through a divorce or they've had a death in their immediate family.

Will Anderson: We have, I think as leaders, we have to understand the importance of, of empathy and being able to display it meaningfully to make that connection with the people that we're responsible for.

There's a saying from John Maxwell, world renowned leadership speaker, that people don't care.

Will Anderson: How much you know until they know.

Will Anderson: How much you care. And that's a really powerful statement. So if you understand that people are.

Will Anderson: Human and they have multiple things going.

Will Anderson: On in their private lives that we need to have and show empathy, you know, we then need to provide these resources for our personnel, whether it's career, volunteer, whatever.

And the goal,

the goal here should be rehabilitation rather than punishment, ostracism and.

Will Anderson: Exclusion or even termination.

Will Anderson: You know, we treat alcoholism and substance abuse as treatable conditions and the same.

Will Anderson: Should be done for burnout. What's the common denominator and all those things.

Will Anderson: It's the brain.

Will Anderson: It's the brain and resetting the brain and retraining the brain.

Will Anderson: And I don't profess to be a.

Will Anderson: Psychiatrist by any stretch of the imagination.

Will Anderson: I have zero formal training in that. But the science tells us that it all stems from the brain. And sometimes we need to do a reboot, so to speak. And,

you know, using computer lingo, sometimes.

Will Anderson: Our computer needs updates. And those updates come in the form of mindfulness, resilience, detaching from the job.

Will Anderson: Resetting ourselves, taking a break, sharpening the saw, I think. And so, yeah, it applies across the.

Will Anderson: Board, in every profession, in every country.

Will Anderson: And everyone can be susceptible to it.

Ed Mann: Well, Chief,

I will certainly tell you that during my tenure as the state fire commissioner, and at the same time being a volunteer fire chief,

and by the way, the financial secretary of the same organization, at the same time being able to go talk to somebody certainly helped me reboot several times during my career.

And sometimes it was just, you know, a 30, 40 minute informal chat, sometimes it was with a mental health professional. But just being able to talk to somebody that, where, you know, you can have that, that.

What's the word? Major emotional catharsis and unload was a good way at times to reset.

And that's why I continue to tell people it's okay to talk to somebody.

So, Chief, during our discussions and scheduling, the podcast you mentioned, you presented in person to the fire service. What kind of reception or feedback did you get from those who attended?

Will Anderson: Positive.

Ed Mann: Did some of them have like, aha moments while you were doing your presentation or. Because I was, gee, that's me. You're talking about me.

Will Anderson: Exactly, exactly. Now, I just finished my research in.

Will Anderson: October, so I've only had the chance to present this one time in person, and that was to the Northeast Ohio Fire Chiefs Association. They were the ones who allowed me.

Will Anderson: To reach out to their members, to include them in this study. So as I was presenting it to them, I had my share of individuals.

Will Anderson: As I was scanning the crowd, they were nodding their heads in agreement.

Will Anderson: I saw some individuals taking screenshots of, of certain slides in the presentation. And I had several attendees come up.

Will Anderson: To me after the presentation to say thank you.

Will Anderson: And you know, perhaps these individuals had been or are struggling in silence, but they don't have to.

But we also sometimes,

chances are we're type A personalities and we're in the business of fixing things for other people and we forget that sometimes we have.

Will Anderson: To fix things for ourselves.

Will Anderson: So, you know, When I had 43 total participants in this study, 93% of.

Will Anderson: My participants experienced burnout at varying frequencies.

Will Anderson: For some it was just a few times a year.

Will Anderson: For others it was every day.

Will Anderson: And it's a problem. But it doesn't have to be. If a fire chief knows how to cope with the stressors and where to go to get help, well.

Ed Mann: And that's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to the webinar with you on May 27th, and I'll mention that again. So, Chief, as we near the end of our station 1902 podcast, do you have any words of wisdom to pass along to our listeners?

Will Anderson: I would certainly love to. Yes. Chances are pretty good that you or.

Will Anderson: Someone you know, one of your peers.

Will Anderson: Another fire chief, are struggling or have struggled with burnout. Please know you're not alone. If you're a chief, it's important to get help sooner rather than later.

Will Anderson: Take time to learn and practice mindfulness.

Will Anderson: Which we'll talk about during the presentation. The Webinar the End of May it's.

Will Anderson: Okay to detach from the job when.

Will Anderson: You have to have a hobby you enjoy that engages your mind. It's okay to turn off your phone for a few hours.

There are resources out there to strengthen your coping skills.

Will Anderson: Now, if you're an aspiring fire chief.

Will Anderson: The job is extremely rewarding but also very challenging. Before you take that step, to have.

Will Anderson: A fourth or fifth stripe on your.

Will Anderson: On your class a uniform, it's important to know yourself and your personality traits. Personality plays a role in this, and we'll talk about that during the webinar.

Ask for help from your peers.

Never, ever feel like you're alone. Chances are very good that another chief.

Will Anderson: Has had the exact same questions you've had.

Will Anderson: It's okay to ask and again detach from the job when you have to, and having professional development will help, but.

Will Anderson: It won't eliminate the stressors.

Will Anderson: And that's where it comes into to.

Will Anderson: Learning how to cope with the stressors and practicing the mindfulness and the resilience.

Will Anderson: Training and those types of things that will allow you to reboot and reset so you can lead your organization effectively.

Ed Mann: Well, Chief Anderson, I want to thank you for taking time to join us today. I'm hopeful our listeners have gained a better understanding of burnout and the impacts it has on an organization, but more importantly, the impacts on the human.

To our listeners, please note, we'll be having a live webinar with Chief Anderson on May 27th at 7:00pm Eastern Standard Time, when he will present more about Fire Chief Burnout, please plan on attending.

To sign up for that webinar and view our previously recorded webinars, visit the link in our Episode Notes.

Share this podcast with your colleagues. You can send them our subscription link, also found in the Show Notes.

Lastly, lastly to our listener listeners, if you have any questions or need additional information,

or if you have an idea for a future webinar or podcast, please email us@infoprovidentins.com Station 1902 signing off until next time, stay safe for your family. Safe.