Station 1902

Welcome back to Station 1902 Podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today's episode is one I've been really looking forward to because we're talking about innovation, service, and the kind of problem solving that comes from real experiences in the field. My guest is Eric Allen, retired Philadelphia firefighter, inventor of the FAST Rescue Board, and someone who has spent decades thinking deeply about how to make rescue operations faster, safer, and more effective. I'm also honored to have retired battalion chief from the city of Harrisburg, Mike Horst, with us today.

If you work in the fire service, emergency response, rescue training, or you're just interested in how great ideas are built from hard earned lessons, this conversation's for you. We'll get into Eric's background, the need that led to the FAST Rescue Board, how the system evolved, what firefighters should be thinking about when seconds matter, and why culture, repetition, and simplicity matter so much in rescue. Eric, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Same to you, Mike.

I'm glad we were finally able to make this happen. Yeah. Great to be here.

Thanks so much for inviting us.

So let's get started. Let's start at the beginning. So for people who may not know the FAST Rescue Board, but may not know the full story, Eric, take a little bit and tell us about your background and what led you into the fire service to begin with.

So background, never really wanted to be a firefighter. Did not have that boyhood dream. Was in the Navy and was on the USS Forrestal aircraft carrier. When I got assigned there, it just happened to be the right timing. When I was getting in docked in there, one of the each MOS, each specific MOS, had to give over a couple of people towards firefighting.

One guy was getting out of the military, and I just happened to come through the door right after that. My officer said, Hey, you look like you're in shape, ready to go. Would you like to get on the firefighting team? And I was like, Absolutely. Anything to keep things interesting.

Got in there and was like, Oh my God, I want to do this forever. So did that. When I was assigned to the Forrestal, my last duty station was Philadelphia. I was at the Naval Yard decommissioning the ship. And before I got out of the military, out of the Navy, I took the test for the fire department, did well enough I knew I was going to get on, and ended up staying in Philadelphia, waiting on the job.

And then got in and just took advantage of everything I could to be a better fireman.

Great. Chief Horst, Mike, same question to you. How did you get started in fire service and why?

Ed, thanks for having me on. It's great to be here with you both. My story is a simple one. Age six, with my parents in the city of Harrisburg, came upon a house on fire. Harrisburg firemen doing their thing, ladders in the air, hoes in the streets, smoking in the air.

And from there on, I decided I wanted to be a fireman. Not just any fireman, but a Harrisburg fireman. That was the goal that I set and achieved and very proud of it. I was lucky enough to do about thirty five years there in the job. Never worked a day in my life, I like to tell people, and just very satisfied to be able to do that.

I've been in the fire service in my fifty sixth year, I believe that's, fifty four, fifty six, something like that. Many years as a volunteer, and even now in retirement, I'm doing what I'm doing with Eric and his company because I want to be engaged, want to be involved, and I want to be a part of a culture that tries to reduce the amount of firefighter fatalities across the world. That's it. I got

to tell the both of you, I'm certainly glad to know the both of you, and I am certainly glad that both of you were doing what you're doing. Even though you're both now retired, what you're doing to to educate the fire service, especially on firefighter rescue and rescue in general. A tip of the hat to you. A lot of people retire from this business and ride off until the sun sets, and they never really really truly give back to the fire service, and I'm glad that both of you continue to give back to the fire service. So thank you both from the bottom of my heart for the work that you do.

Well, you're doing it too, Ed. Well,

so here we go, Eric. Was there a specific problem or repeated scenario that stayed with you and made you think we need a better answer for this?

Yeah, it came on after I got into special operations. Backing up just a little bit, still in the academy, one of the Rescue One officers came up and gave us the story of Rising Sun Baptist Church and how we lost a couple of members there. Throughout the years, got to work with these guys at Rescue One, was a student of theirs, and then got to work beside them. But the story was how difficult it was, or one of the main points was how difficult it was to get this firefighter up a flight of stairs and out of the basement. These were several of the most capable, most intelligent, best firefighters I ever worked with.

It took them about fifteen, twenty minutes, which is right around national average for evacuating a firefighter, especially from a basement. Then I was very fortunate again. I got to be in the first formal special operations class that Philadelphia put on. Before that, it was the good old boys club. Hey, you're pretty good with carpentry.

Hey, you're pretty good with this. Come over here. See if you can learn this stuff. And I remember very specifically when we were training on getting a firefighter up a flight of steps, the instructors were like, This is bulwark. This is going to suck.

This is hard. This is the best techniques we have. Fast forward a little bit, bit of a rope nerd, got asked to come back for the next class to be an adjunct instructor. I was pretty good at moving people, even though I'm not a big guy. I understand body mechanics pretty well.

And I was telling the same thing to my students, Hey, this is hard. This is the best technique we have. When I was in the first class, they challenged us to come up with something better. We didn't. And then I was challenging my students to come up with something better.

And I think it was the third class that I had taught. I was standing there, speech, and then it just kind of hit me. I backed up and was like, Why am I telling my students to come up with something better? I'm teaching this. I should be coming up with something better.

Talked to a couple of the other instructors and was like, Hey, let's get together and talk about this. Let's see if we can come up with something better. We all were like, Sounds good. Let's meet at the bar. I was the only one that showed up.

So I sat there with a glass of Scotch, I think, and bar napkin, and drew out a couple of designs and started really thinking about what made it hard to move someone, especially what made it hard to move a firefighter. And I just kind of listed those things out of my mind, and then I just could not put it down. Just picking at the problem like a splinter in my brain, just couldn't get it out. I just started thinking about these things. An unconscious body is like a bag of chain.

Well, how do we get some rigidity back into that body? What can we do with body dynamics, anatomy, physiology, to make that easier. What are the other problems? And I just started picking it apart, picking it apart, and then slowly kept working on the design until I had something that was functional, And then just continued to work on it. Just, Hey, this worked.

And I would take it back to other firefighters, my crew, other people in the firehouse. Go play with this. Tell me what works. Tell me what didn't work. And then something didn't work.

I went back and fixed that, and then just kept doing that over and over again until it was like, Hey, I've got something here, and let's see about moving forward with this.

Mike, how did you get involved with Eric? How did the two of you link up with one another?

Funny story. Eric and I are both members of Pennsylvania Task Force One, the urban search and rescue component. And if I remember correctly, the Pope came to The United States, and one of the things that Pennsylvania Task Force One did very well and still does is support the Commonwealth in any way it can. And they stood us up like they normally do, and it was a hot Philadelphia summer, if I remember correctly. And we were engaged in some swift water rescue training.

So that meant in upper 90s, temperature, high humidity. We were in our swimwear, if you will, which were dry suits, PFDs, and what have you. When was all said and done, Eric walked up to me and said to me, Hey, some of the guys tell me you know a little something about firefighter rescue. I said, I think. And he led me to his truck, showed me his model, and I was immediately bought in.

Because when Eric showed me a couple of the key things that even to this day are what really changed the mind when someone sees it in action, I told him I was on board, if you will, and actually one of the Other than the close brothers that he worked with on the street, I think I'm the actual first non Philadelphia guy that was a part of the whole Fast Rescue Solutions concept.

So fellas, I got to tell you, I got involved doing RIP thirty one years ago, thereabouts. Pat Polly here from Lewistown and a retired state fire academy instructor approached me about starting a county wide RIP team for Mifflin County. I can tell you that I wish now we would have had your board thirty one years ago when we were out trying to learn the ropes on on on how to move people upstairs out of a basement through a window, etcetera, etcetera. And and I've been fortunate over the last several years to be able to watch Mike do demonstrations with the board. And I gotta tell you, my back probably wouldn't hurt near as much today if I'd had your board around thirty one years ago.

So so for someone that's hearing about the FAST Rescue Board for the first time, Mike or Eric, you can take this question. How do you describe the board in simple terms? I mean, you know,

Well, the one thing that I'll add, Ed, is that the simple thing that people have to understand is that when we have to move the human body, which Eric is an absolute expert at, is that there's the firefighter rescue paradigm, as I call it. It's weight, friction, and form. I'll let Eric go into that whole process, but in order to successfully move someone to rescue, to give them a chance to live, if they're in a worst case scenario, we have to be able to consider that movement process with those three variables. Eric?

Yeah. So the way I would describe the board is a rapid extrication device. I would not put it into writ or anything else. It is just having the ability to get somebody onto the board, as a single person packaging someone. It works very well.

Again, understanding anatomy, physiology, how to move the body, how to get it onto the board, and the concept of a single point connection, a single tightening pull, and you can start moving. We can get somebody from the time the board sits down beside them, it should be no longer than thirty seconds with a little bit of training to be able to capture that body, secure them to the board, and start moving them. We push that out a lot. One click, one pull, moving. That is what our goal is.

In that environment, speed has to come before anything else. We do fast things as fast as we possibly can, and we do slow things as slow as we have to, to be able to get somebody on there connected and moving as quickly as possible.

So the bottom line is that not only can this board be used for firefighter rescue, it can be used in EMS or other situations to move people other than firefighters.

Absolutely. We've had at least 30 reports of moving civilians. We've had four, maybe five reports moving large animals, large dogs that were ejected out of a car down into a ravine or up a flight of stairs. We had, I think it was a 170, 180 pound bull mastiff sick in the basement of a house that couldn't get them out. They were able to do the exact same thing, go down there, get them onto the board, make that connection, and get them up and out of that stairs and out into a better environment.

So the bottom line is, is this kind of left to your imagination and it comes down to training?

Absolutely. I think everything in the fire service comes to training.

Let me emphasize good training, not training for training's sake, but good training led by instructors who want to teach, not just try to impress you with what they know. Absolutely. So Mike, do you want to

add something about that with our training?

Yeah. And one of the key points that we push out at virtually Well, not virtually, at every training we give is that when the moment comes, when you need to do what it is you need to do to save a brother or sister's life or to save a civilian's life, you're not going to rise to the occasion. You're going to fall back to the tools of that training, and that's an important element. We preach that it's good reps on top of good reps on top of good reps. That's what makes you good at what you're going to do when pressure's on.

Great. So either one of you or both of you can take this question. What are some of the design lessons that came directly from real field experience rather than just theory? Eric, I'll start with you.

So go back to moving a firefighter from a basement. One of the first designs that was in my head is that it needed to be a smaller platform. Getting a backboard into a basement or a Stokes basket or something like that, especially in inner city stairs 25 inches across, coming up to an area that's maybe 30 inches long, and you've got to make a right angle corner to be able to get out of that box that you're in. So it needed to be smaller and needed to be able to tip and roll to its side to lower that radius of turn. Then we needed to overcome the problems of moving up stairs.

Mean, stairs are nothing but snag hazards. If you've ever had to move somebody up a flight of stairs, bottom of the bottle's getting caught, their clothes are getting caught, all of these things. We needed to be able to compress that package as much as possible, take as many of those snag hazards away, and make it a smooth transition. One of the design features is that the webbing comes out of the front of the board and is low. And then if the board gets pushed under something, specifically the bullnose on the stairs, when that haul line is pulled, that webbing will actually push the board backwards and ride it up on top of the stairs.

So it needed to overcome those problems right from the beginning. Well,

like I said, I've had the opportunity to watch Mike do classes with it, and all those things you just described work just as you described them. I'm going to open this to both of you, this one here. So look, firefighters can be skeptical, sometimes for good reasons. How do you approach introducing a new tool to a culture that values proof over hype?

I think exactly what you just said. We never go in with the fault of selling. We go in with and I put this out to all my instructors, all my reps. We don't sell, we show value. If the fire department or the firefighter doesn't see value in what we're doing or what we're putting out there, then shake their hand.

Hopefully they got something else out of it, and then we move on. I think that is the most important thing that we do. When we come in, we are there to instruct, teach, and show value. Hopefully, they see the value in their environment.

Mike, do you have anything to add?

Yeah. I think one of the things that's important is to remember that as firemen, we only know what we know when you think about that. New ideas are exactly what they are. They're new ideas. They're not always accepted well.

The premise behind a good idea is how well you can convey that idea to the receiver. I think that's what we do. What makes our message so simple to send is the proof in what you see with your eyes. You hit it on the head. We've all been involved in this RIT thing, firefighter rescue, for a very long time, accolades to the Pennsylvania State Fire Academy, I still say one of the greatest deliveries in the curriculum was the firefighter rescue delivery, which was just amazing.

And when you have to drag each other around, you have to drag 200 pound mannequins around and move them, change elevation with them up and down and those kinds of things, you realize it's a young man's game. Not everybody in the fire service today is a young man. Not everybody, whether it be career volunteer that rides an apparatus and goes through the front door is a young man. There has to be ways to overcome some of these failure points. And that's the one thing that the FAST Board and our training is designed to do, is designed to make things easier through understanding the mechanics to move the human body.

And Eric has done just such a remarkable job building that into the process.

Mike, you triggered a memory with me. I remember when the fire academy staff came to me when I was the fire commissioner and said, We want to take this firefighter rescue training as part of the Academy on the Road program on the road. And the only issue I had was trying to find a way to pay the instructors to do it. And between Kent Lead and I at the time, we were able to move some money around in the budget and made it as part of the Academy on the Road program, and it was very well received by the Pennsylvania Fire Service. I still remember going to some of the first pilot programs we did with it as a fire commissioner and observing.

So you just triggered a memory with me. So when I look back over my tenure as a fire commissioner, that's one thing that I'm glad the staff came to me and said, We want to do this, and we did it.

Well, know, those are the good relevant trainings that I think that we can all look back on because the strength of that class was the fact that we actually used Pompier ladders or scaling ladders at the academy. The instructors took us to the field where we actually went into caves and did cave rescue. Those are things that you just can't replicate in much of today's world that will always live in my mind as long as I have a mind to remember those things with. So

next question is for the both of you. Both of you have spent a lot of time around training and rescue culture. Where do you think fire departments still struggle when it comes to firefighter rescue readiness or rescue readiness period, whoever wants to take the first crack at

that one. Mike, why don't you go ahead?

Okay. Well, so Ed, remember And Eric, probably you'll remember this, this might be before your time, but remember in basic CPR back in the day, the question on the written test was, What's the number one cause for a fatal heart attack? Do you remember the answer to that question, Ed? Old man. The answer was failure to recognize the signs and symptoms

There you go.

About them.

Yeah. Well, that's the exact same thing that I lay out to fire chiefs today. If you are responsible for the most important asset that you have in your organization, which is your personnel, you have to look at what we call the five or die. It's the worst case scenario that could happen on your fire ground. That's when one of your own goes down, they're unconscious, they're not breathing, and they're in the ideal age.

If you can't solve that in five minutes or less, it's a firefighter line of duty death. So that's one of the things that fire chiefs, operations chiefs, training chiefs, safety officers, company officers, even down to the rank and file themselves, they need to understand that they need to assess their capabilities as an organization. And if you're operating as we are here in the East Coast, legacy construction, Eric talked about it earlier, narrow stairways to the basement, fifteen, sixteen, 18 inches wide, 28, 30 steps, pretty severe angle. If you can't get personnel down, get someone up and out in less than five minutes, they're not going to make it. And that has to be the number one consideration.

Before you decide to buy one more Roto Ray or before you decide to spend 10 more dollars on an inch of gold leaf, you need to think that we have the ability to do this. And that ability comes through training, culture, understanding, and some tools of trade to make that possible. That's how I look at it. That's the number one obstacle that I find in firefighter rescue today, is dependency on the wrong things. People think that a RIP bag is going to RIP bags are wonderful devices.

They have specific purposes, they're well thought out in many cases. But there's one thing that they don't immediately solve, and it's the worst case scenario, someone down on constant not breathing in IVLH. The person needs to get out, and we need to go through all the other things that we as a company bring to bear in our culture on how to save a down fireman's life.

So comments I used to make when I traveled, people would tell me, Well, we have a RIP team. Well, what training do they have? And one question I used to ask was, and I put it out as a challenge, I wanna set up the mock up for a Denver drill. And if you can take that person out of that window in under five minutes with just two people, then you have a RIP team. If you can't do that, you're not ready to do RIP.

And I saw it in a lot of places. Well, we'll just put a rescue company on our box alarms for a RIP team. No training, no nothing. I got a backboard. I got a Stokes basket.

I loaded it full of tools, and we're ready to go. But they wouldn't be able to execute the Denver drill without a major struggle. And I used to get a lot of criticism for being critical of people when I would make those comments, but it is what it is, fellas. Absolutely. So we kind of already touched on this one, so we don't have to take I'd love what Eric said earlier.

We don't go to sell the board. We tell you what it can do, what its capabilities are, and at the end of the day, if you decide to buy, that's great. If you don't, no harm, no foul. We did our best. Know, fellas, I I kinda take the same approach when I have to go do a sales presentation for insurance.

I'm not here to sell you anything. Here's the value in our product. This is how it'll protect your people and your families. If you're interested, great. If you're not, I did my best.

Yep. One of the things that we try to do is find ways to lead value even if they don't want our system. If there's time when we go out and do demos, especially if the department doesn't have a firefighter CPR program or not familiar with it, I encourage all of my reps, all of my instructors, when you go in and do a demo, you're going to show them how to get somebody out as quickly as possible. But then we need to know what to do with them. So we try to take extra time and go over firefighter CPR if they've got their program, or teach it to them if they don't, so that when we walk out of that door, we not only offered value, we gave them value.

We came and they said, No, no problem. You got firefighter CPR. You can try to get that facilitated inside your department. We can show you the need for it, and we can leave something.

So at the end of the day, you've left them with some nuggets whether they decide to purchase the board or not. Absolutely. In today's environment, I think that's very important. So I want to shift a little bit to leadership because obviously having gear is one piece of the equation, but leadership under pressure is another. So I'm going to throw this out to both of you.

What do good rescue leaders do well when things are going bad?

Well, I'll jump in there, Ed.

Yeah. Well

So I'll break this down a little bit. I'm not going to use an official leader in that respect. I'm going to talk about rescue firemen in general. The success comes when you have the ability to lead up and lead down. I look at rescue firemen as the tier one guys in our military service.

I hear it all the time traveling around for the company, doing the training, that guys hate RIT. Even here locally, I hear horror stories about how guys will do everything they can to get out of RIT. I've seen in my time here, working the streets in Harrisburg, I've seen what good RIT looks like. I know what a tier one RIT group looks like. And that's DLA Company sixty nine, the people that serve my guys in the city of Harrisburg.

That's the mindset people have to have. But it boils down to the fact that you can't be a reactive, writ element and stand there waiting for something to happen. What makes good rescue firemen is the fact that they're proactive and they're operating like tier one guys. Everybody knows each other's job. And then in failure, one guy, another guy can step in.

That it's being proactive and getting those things done so that when somebody does need rescue, they're able to do it. I think that's what good leadership's about. It's about providing that environment where it's fair and equitable, and you can work up and down the chain and not have to be concerned about whether you're going get stomped on by a company officer or even a chief officer.

Eric, do you have anything you want to add?

Yeah, I'll do it from a line guy, firefighter my whole career. Did special operations for a long time. You kind of have that sergeant mentality. We didn't have sergeants in Philadelphia Fire Department, but I've been around a while. I kind of took on that role.

For me, it was making sure that not only that I had the information, but I had to make sure that everybody else had that information. So if you were soft on something, we worked on what you were soft on. We would work on things we were good at because we wanted to continue being good at them. But you have to really look at yourself and look at the people around you and go, Hey, we're lacking here. Let's go take some time to do that.

Let's get out from in front of the TV or eat an hour late or whatever it is, but you got to step up there and go, Hey, we need to go work on this. I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable and be able to say things. I sat down with several firefighters in my career and said, Hey. I remember one of them very specifically, 03:00 in the morning, went up, sat down and said, Hey, we need to talk.

And, Okay, let's talk. He said, Hey, the guys are really starting to trust you. And the firefighter was like, Awesome, that's great. And I'm like, No, no, no, you don't understand. They're starting to trust you to do the wrong things because you're proving it when we're out there in the field.

So we need to take four or five steps back and change that. We need to work on these things so they start trusting you for the right reasons, not for the

wrong reasons. Well, you know, one of the hardest things I did as a local level instructor, this was many years ago now, was I had a young man in an entry level fire training program that obviously did not want to be there, and his father, who was very active in the fire service, called me and said, what should he be doing to get ready for the next level of training? And my comment to his father was he doesn't belong in a fire station. He might want to be there someday, but right now, the only reason he's there is because of you. He's not ready.

He doesn't want to be here, and he's just going to be a problem for somebody. Well, that particular young man has not been in a firehouse since then and nor has his father spoken to me as a result of that conversation, but it was something that had to be said. So, you know, it's sometimes doing the hard thing isn't easy, but it has to be done.

Hear hear on that. I agree. Yep. I'm saying? When those

conversations need to happen, they need to happen now, not after the next fire, not after the next incident. They need to happen now, and we need to start working on it as soon as possible.

Yeah. You can't keep kicking the can down the road. We're in the wrong business to be kicking cans down the road. Eric, So and this question's going to be for both of you, as we near the end of the podcast, do you have any final thoughts or words of wisdom to pass along?

Sure. One of the things that I learned once I started doing Fast Rescue Solutions and getting out there and being exposed to great instructors around the country, around the world really, is get out of your fire department. Go and train with somebody else. Don't have that negative thought of, That's that company over there, or That's that department, whatever. Go and train with other people.

You can learn stuff. I personally, when I started this eleven years ago, twenty years on the fire department, learned a lot getting out there and meeting other instructors and looking at how they do things and their thoughts and what they chose as their speciality, whatever, was able to learn and take a lot back to the Philadelphia Fire Department and change things and build programs and teach them out to the rank and file. I think that's a huge thing is get out of your kingdom and go listen to some other people and take classes. I think that's a huge thing.

Well, Mike, your turn, same question.

Well, I think that once again, bearing down on this assessing your capabilities, think is so critical. 2,500 ago, there was a famous philosopher in general, Sun Tzu. And of all the Sun Tzu isms that stick with me, the one that I love the most is that every battle's won before it is fought. So who can't take that to heart and say, If we're generally concerned about our people and we want to try to minimize any potential for firefighter fatality, then we need to be prepared. This is it.

This is how you do that. I highly recommend get some good training. I mean, I think all training is good. Balance training, I think, is essential to be a good fireman. But I think that when you Well, I don't think, I'm convinced that if you're genuinely concerned about your personnel, then firefighter light safety and rescue training needs to be paramount.

Once a month, you should do something that has something to do with firefighter rescue and firefighter survival. And I look at that as that you should be able to rescue yourself and your partner. Those are the two bare minimums. Eric and I are both all about them. The them culture is strong as it should be.

It is about Mr. And Mrs. Smith. That's why we're in this business. But in order to do that, there needs to be something for us.

And I think being able to rescue yourself and your partner, saving your own fast is one of the things that we promote with our training. And I think you don't even have to buy anything from us other than maybe a cup of coffee, and we can come and sit and talk about some of the things that may help you save some of your personnel's life somewhere down the road. But I'm just such a believer in good formal training, correct, efficient training that deals with rescuing ourselves and rescuing our partners.

So to your point about the assessment, Mike, you do the self assessment. It might be on yourself personally. It might be your department. But at the end of the day, if you do the assessment and you realize that you just don't have the resources to do what needs to be done, then the question becomes, do we either train up and gear up for that, or do we find somebody else that can do it for us and do it well? And without that assessment, you never know that.

Well, think about that, Ed. If you're a fire chief that works off a tactical worksheet, and you have a checkbox that's for writ, so is that for the sake of the checkoff, or does it really mean something? Because what we encounter often is we get calls from Fire Chiefs that want training or product. When I ask the questions that I ask, Do you provide RIT? Or Are you receiving RIT?

It's scary that there are people that are depending on RIT that is either twenty minutes or twenty miles away. And that five or die, when someone's down unconscious, not breathing in a bad environment, that's a fatality. And the way that you overcome that is that you train up, you think up, you provide your people with the knowledge, skills, and abilities that if somebody goes down, this is what we're going to do. We don't have time to wait for the writ. Writ is important.

It's valuable. But if it's not there in that initial five minutes or so when many of the maydays go down, it's inefficient. Not It's a good concept. So I think that's what people have to do. If you're a fire chief in a department that has basements in your first due, then go to a basement scenario, put someone down, have your rescue fireman above, start the clock, send them down.

Can they get them up and out in under five minutes? If they can't, they need to assess what they need to do to make it better, and that's what we're here for. We're here to help those assessments and give them our knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience in trying to make that a better situation for them.

Well, fellows, I got to tell you, I'm glad we finally got this accomplished. I look forward to the webinar, the live webinar we'll be doing later this year with the both of you on Both. This particular subject or a subject similar to this. To our listeners, to sign up for that webinar or view our previously recorded webinars, visit the link in our episode notes. Share this podcast with your colleagues.

You can send them our subscription link also found in the show notes. We'll also include the website address for fast rescue solutions in the episode notes as well. Lastly, to our listeners, if you have any questions or need additional information, or if you have an idea for a future webinar or podcast, please email us at info@providentins.com. Station nineteen oh two, signing off. Until next time, stay safe for your family's safety.