PCG Connect

Mel Renfrow: 00:02

Welcome to Inside Out, our newest series where we take a deep dive look at performance contracting services and product lines. We'll be talking to the movers and shakers of performance contracting, the folks who make the big deals and then bring those big deals to life. So with that, let's get to

Roberta Coons-Redig: 00:22

So welcome to the studio, everybody. We've got a couple of fire stopping experts here. We've got Jacob and Alan, if you guys can introduce yourselves.

Jakob Datko: 00:31

So I'm, Jakob from the Vancouver branch, and I've been doing Firestop for about 1 year.

Alan McDurmon: 00:37

And I'm Alan from Atlanta, and been doing Firestop for 22, 23 years, something like that.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 00:43

Nice. Hey.

Jakob Datko: 00:43

So, yeah, we have a seasoned expert right now, and the kids. Hey. It's good to

Daniel Blatter: 00:47

good to have a little

Jakob Datko: 00:48

bit of both. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's good balance there.

Jakob Datko: 00:50

Yeah.

Alan McDurmon: 00:50

Get all the energy over there and

Roberta Coons-Redig: 00:52

the All the expertise over there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming in today. We, definitely glad to learn more about this, scope. So, Alan, can you tell us a little bit about, from your 23 years of experience, the history of fire stopping at PCI?

Jakob Datko: 01:08

Could I actually jump in there for the history? Absolutely. I think I know a thing or 2. So, out in Las Vegas in about 1980, correct me if I'm wrong, there was a a fire in the MGM, and, that fire ended up killing about 85 people.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 01:24

Oh, wow.

Jakob Datko: 01:24

And the issue there was that the fire, expanded too quickly, you know. So that kinda got Firestop on people's radar, you know. I'm not sure how long we've been doing Firestop out in PCI. You're probably one of the first estimators. You know?

Alan McDurmon: 01:39

No. They were doing it before me. But the fire that he's talking about, it happened in the kitchen. And it's the strange part about it is the fire didn't reach up in the upper levels. The smoke did.

Alan McDurmon: 01:49

That's what killed most of the people. Smoke is what kills most people. The the fire stop not only stops the fire, but also, you know, keeps the smoke at.

Jakob Datko: 01:56

Yeah. Fire stop's not just fire. There's also smoke gradings as well.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 01:59

That makes sense. Yeah. And that's this is such a like, obviously, every scope that we do is important, but this is

Jakob Datko: 02:06

an immediate life and death thing.

Alan McDurmon: 02:07

Yes. It's really neat.

Jakob Datko: 02:08

That's what I like about it too because everyone knows, safety is the number one core value, and Firestop's all about life safety. If we execute our job correctly, we can save lives.

Alan McDurmon: 02:18

That's really cool.

Jakob Datko: 02:18

That's awesome. That's so impactful.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 02:20

You can

Alan McDurmon: 02:20

take our number one and put it into the real world.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 02:22

So it's really

Alan McDurmon: 02:22

cool, beyond our when we leave the project.

Jakob Datko: 02:26

You gotta make sure you're doing it correctly, and make sure you have the communication with the field too, and make sure all the ducks are in line. Mhmm. It's not easy, but it's worth it.

Alan McDurmon: 02:34

So we had Brian Rymer was out there at the time, and he was involved, and a couple other guys that aren't with the company anymore, but Brian's retired since then also. And over time, he got moved and then came to corporate and really pushed for initiative to have fire stopping throughout the country. Pushed for certifications, pushed for us to be above and beyond and really be the the preeminent fire cell company. We had a seminar 2 weeks ago, and I think there was 12 or 16 branches represented.

Jakob Datko: 03:02

Yeah. Not every branch. Just a select few, which is it's weird for me because this fire or smoke happened in 1980, and it still seems like it's a new thing for GCs. Not everybody knows about it, which is just a little surprising for me.

Daniel Blatter: 03:17

That kind of leads into my next question. Can you describe the difference between fireproofing and fire stopping?

Jakob Datko: 03:23

Yeah. Very, very common question. Stopping is pretty much to maintain the rating on a wall, typically, for, like, interior. And, fireproofing is for structural beams. It's It's the spray that you put on it.

Jakob Datko: 03:35

Yeah. Very common question. I'm not sure if you guys do fireproofing out there in Atlanta, but I'm strictly fire stopping.

Alan McDurmon: 03:41

But it's both are passive. Okay. So when you think fire protection, you know, fire stop, fire proofing, or passive fire stop or fire protection, where, like, sprinklers are active.

Jakob Datko: 03:53

Oh, okay.

Alan McDurmon: 03:54

That makes sense. So I mean, it's I've got some notes here. It says, they give it like this. Fire stop materials are stopping their spread of fire and smoke by ceiling gaps, joints and holes in fire rated walls, floors and ceilings. Fire proofing materials are protecting the structure of your building from fire and preserving its strength for a long period, during a fire.

Alan McDurmon: 04:14

So I mean, you've seen steel melts or bends when a fire happens. We've all seen the 911 videos when the plane hit and the fire blew the fireproofing off of the steel and you know, eventually, it pancaked and caused the problem.

Daniel Blatter: 04:30

Yeah. So in essence, fire stopping is more of a, hey, let let's control the fire. Let's control the smoke before it gets out of hand.

Jakob Datko: 04:37

Correct. Walls have ratings, like a 2 hour rating. Point of it, you have a duct or a pipe going through a wall, there's gonna be a hole there. We need to fill that void so we can maintain that rating and hold it off for 2 more hours.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 04:49

Yeah. Because you don't want the smoke or the fire to get through that hole and get onto the next room, etcetera, etcetera.

Jakob Datko: 04:54

Every single construction building is gonna have something going through a wall. And if we're not doing anything for it, then the rating doesn't even matter.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 05:01

Can you tell us a bit about, like, how it's applied? Who applies it? Obviously, with something this important, there's gonna be, like, rules and regulations that you have to learn.

Jakob Datko: 05:11

Correct. Well, we have a Firestop Union. They're part of the Heat and Frost Union, and they get training through the union, and they actually apply it. But, yeah, I go through an apprenticeship program and all that jazz.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 05:21

Gotcha. So do they start as carpenters and then head into that union?

Jakob Datko: 05:26

Actually separated. The carpenters and the heat

Alan McDurmon: 05:28

and frost. I'm not sure about

Roberta Coons-Redig: 05:30

you guys. Same. Same. Okay. So so it's not just here's something a carpenter can tack on.

Jakob Datko: 05:34

It's its own track. That's Depending on the area and the region.

Alan McDurmon: 05:37

Depending on the area. And different trades claim different things. The carpenters claim the work at the, the joints, whereas the the plumbers are in the, heat frost are gonna try to, you know, take take the plumbing and mechanical piping.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 05:51

Interesting.

Jakob Datko: 05:51

Yeah. Okay.

Daniel Blatter: 05:54

So what what kind of products do you use for for fire stopping? I what what comes to mind first for me is, like, a putty or a paste that's applied. But is there any sort of, like, colors or

Jakob Datko: 06:04

Yeah.

Daniel Blatter: 06:04

Different products that you use? What's what's most common?

Jakob Datko: 06:07

There's always variables on the system that kind of define what we have to apply. Right? And so I work a lot in electricals. So the annular spaces, the openings are bigger. So I use, like, pillows and bricks to fill that void.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 06:18

Can you tell us what annular spaces?

Jakob Datko: 06:20

It's pretty much the, distance between the penetrant and the wall

Roberta Coons-Redig: 06:24

opening So, like, if you have opening a wall. Going through the space between the pipe and the wall, that's exactly

Jakob Datko: 06:29

what it is. Okay. So that's the void we have to fill. So I use pillows and breaks. For putty, you use putty pad for electrical boxes and stuff like that.

Jakob Datko: 06:38

Typically, I'm just, mechanical and plumbing penetration, so it's just a a caulk, silicone caulk or something.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 06:45

Gotcha. And, so you mentioned pillows and bricks. So that sounds obviously like going from caulk, which is like a fairly small space

Jakob Datko: 06:53

to the building. On the annular space. Ideally, it's, like, less than an inch, you know, so you can just stuff and cock it. But sometimes, if you have a cable tray, there's gonna be a bigger opening.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 07:02

Gotcha. Okay.

Alan McDurmon: 07:03

There are gonna be variables in there with the type of pipe it is and how much insulation it is. There's there's multiple, you know, things in

Jakob Datko: 07:09

There's so many variables. It's it's a lot of due diligence to make sure you're using the right application.

Alan McDurmon: 07:14

It's a a submittal package alone.

Jakob Datko: 07:16

No. It's no fun, but you gotta do it.

Alan McDurmon: 07:18

It's several there's 70 pages sometimes. It's And

Jakob Datko: 07:21

you always do the submittal of something in mind, and what's in the field never actually matches it. So then you gotta start doing EJs and making sure Yeah.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 07:29

What what is the EJ?

Jakob Datko: 07:30

Engineering judgment.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 07:31

Oh, gotcha. So if it's all this work, then why is it worth it?

Jakob Datko: 07:36

Like I said before, safety is the number one core value. Mhmm. Firestop's all about life safety. So, when people self perform, they don't know how to actually do it, and if something happens, people's lives are at risk. You know?

Jakob Datko: 07:49

So if we know what we're doing, it's just important for people keeping people alive. You know?

Alan McDurmon: 07:54

Yeah. So there's a misconception that that a lot of times that, and this has happened over the years, that red caulk is a fire stop, and it's not.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 08:02

Oh.

Alan McDurmon: 08:03

So I'm sure you're gonna get to this later in the podcast, but, you know, it has to be a tested system. So the wall, the pipe, the the insulation value, the thickness, the annual space, all of that, then the type of caulk goes in together to make a system. So there is no magic caulk that you put in a wall or a pillow or brick or foam or putty or whatever it is.

Jakob Datko: 08:25

Misconception right there.

Alan McDurmon: 08:26

Yeah. It's a complete system that the whole kitten caboodle, every part is important.

Jakob Datko: 08:32

Yeah. For the outside eyes, it looks very simple to somebody who doesn't know about it, but it's way more intricate than people realize.

Daniel Blatter: 08:39

Now I've seen on on these projects too. After you're done, there's a a special sticker that has to be applied Depending on the project.

Jakob Datko: 08:46

Depending on the project. Depending on the project. Yeah. Depending on the project.

Alan McDurmon: 08:48

So there's a label that goes on that says, hey, this is a firewall. Don't penetrate it. Don't tear anything up. If you do, let the building owner or us, a lot of times, our name's on it.

Daniel Blatter: 08:56

Now do those have to be reinspected periodically or is it just this, do the job and and you don't come back to it?

Alan McDurmon: 09:03

In health care and in a lot of the, pharmaceutical and others that have a yearly inspection, they do. But in, the commercial side, not

Daniel Blatter: 09:12

So obviously, Firestop isn't like it's not a luxury. It's not it's not a cool ceiling.

Jakob Datko: 09:16

It's not the prettiest thing we

Daniel Blatter: 09:18

do, I guess. It's not the prettiest thing, but it's like you said, it's life saving, really important thing. So, obviously, there are codes and different things that require Firestop. Now does that vary from region to region? Does that vary from type of project to type of project?

Alan McDurmon: 09:34

It depends on the city, the region, the area. Each one will adopt a different version of the IBC, the international building code. Georgia is living under the 2018, while California's adopted the 22 version. And Chicago's even more stringent because they have their own that's tacked on top of that. But some areas have even more.

Alan McDurmon: 09:55

With Miami, with all the problems they've had with hurricanes and stuff, they've got you know, every fireman is a, quote unquote, fire marshal. And then some areas they use, they rely a lot on independent inspectors. And then when you do we're here doing government compliance training. When you do work for the navy or the army corps or others, you know, they've got their own group that comes in and, you know, checks it.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 10:17

Alright. This is the time in the show where I bust out terminology. I have no clue what it means. Can you tell me, about, like, things like UL or, FM and then a bunch of numbers?

Alan McDurmon: 10:30

Okay. So UL, and FM. So back early on, the FCIA, Firestop Contractors Association International, went to FM and UL. UL wasn't interested at the time, but went to FM and created a certification that we are a lot of the guys in, the PCI law, sorry. A lot of the people at PCI are, certified with FM.

Alan McDurmon: 10:56

Over time, UL has got on the bandwagon, has created one for themselves. And, you know, we've kinda split amongst the country between FM and UL. It depends. FM being a insurance company, they want to make sure that what they've got on, if they're insuring, is is done correctly. UL also does private inspection.

Alan McDurmon: 11:17

So, you know, they wanna make sure that that that they're doing their stuff as well. The ones that have it, end up being audited every year to make sure that we are following our QA manual. We just haven't signed up a new one here recently. Pat Roth and Jason signed off on us. So it's, you know, it's an actionable item.

Alan McDurmon: 11:36

We're trying to get the company, although we always have been, we're going to that next level and being, putting the PCI spend on and being Yeah. PCG and being, yeah, being the preeminent group that people call on.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 11:49

Tell us from a business standpoint, what the margins are like for this, because it's a lot of work. Is it is it gonna be worth it on the financials?

Jakob Datko: 11:57

I think it's worth it. Yeah. I think in regards to margin percentage, it's up there. What pulling in what? 25, 30% margin on it?

Alan McDurmon: 12:04

It depends on the region type of work, but, you know, we'll see jobs at 25. We see jobs that are 50. You know, I mean, it's a smaller amount of work overall as far as

Jakob Datko: 12:18

Yeah. In regards to, like, revenue too, it's not too high up there. But margin wise, I think we're Yeah.

Alan McDurmon: 12:23

We're definitely not getting, metal building installation. No. We're or I'm sorry, metal panel, numbers. But, you know

Roberta Coons-Redig: 12:32

But that margin is impressive.

Jakob Datko: 12:33

Margin is nice, and revenue is, it's not the highest right now, but I think there's a bright future in regards to revenue when people start realizing that fire stopping is important and that everything's becoming sole source now. Like, everybody has to use the same material on the job if it's Hilti or STI. Soon, it's gonna be 1 Firestop contractor. And interior says head to wall and joints, we do through penetrations, you know, so there's opportunity for 1 PCG. There's opportunity for alignment.

Daniel Blatter: 13:00

Is this service typically performed on its own, or is this usually bundled with other services, other other parts of the job?

Jakob Datko: 13:09

It depends. So for me in particular, we're an installation contracting as well. So we bid an installation number, and we put a fire stop number with the installation number. I do have stand alone fire stop jobs, but there's most of the time, installation and fire stop go hand in hand.

Alan McDurmon: 13:25

Yeah. Same here. I'll do a job for the plumber, the mechanical, the electrical, the sprinkler, the drywall guy. But then we'll turn around and have a job where we're single source on the whole job. Oh, wow.

Alan McDurmon: 13:36

There's it just really depends on the size of the job. And, you know, that's the biggest factor, it seems like.

Daniel Blatter: 13:42

Well, that kinda leads us into joint ventures.

Jakob Datko: 13:45

Are you are you currently doing any joint venture work, or is there

Daniel Blatter: 13:49

where do you see there being opportunity there?

Alan McDurmon: 13:51

So we are currently working with Seattle, LA, Memphis at the Ford plant in Memphis. Indy has a job with the Indianapolis branch and I forget the other branch involved at the Ford plant in Kentucky.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 14:07

I think it's Cincinnati.

Alan McDurmon: 14:09

Maybe so, yeah. And there's another one, West Coast Group that's out there also. And Dallas is working with Phoenix, on a chip manufacturing plant and another job that's coming out even though there's so many out right now. We've done a lot of meta jobs with Tampa. It's really worked out well.

Alan McDurmon: 14:31

The one PCG has really broken out a lot of walls and opened doors for the branches to work together and don't see each other as estranged cousins anymore, which is Yeah.

Jakob Datko: 14:40

It's been fantastic. You know,

Alan McDurmon: 14:41

they see the value in growing the stock and growing the group, and it's it's really been well.

Jakob Datko: 14:46

It's really a team effort too, which is nice.

Alan McDurmon: 14:48

Yeah. It is.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 15:45

So you've mentioned, plants and hospitals. Is there anything that, fire stopping and fireproofing like, are there any markets that it wouldn't work in?

Jakob Datko: 15:56

No. It's a thing in every single situation. Every building is gonna need fire stopping.

Daniel Blatter: 16:02

Commercial, industrial. Commercial.

Jakob Datko: 16:03

I'm on commercial data centers, hospitals.

Alan McDurmon: 16:06

That's this is the one item that's on just about every job. Like, for example, Memphis is all insulated metal panels, and we're out there doing fire stop on that. And like Jacob was saying earlier, we do a lot of work on jobs that have all drywall. The commercial jobs are mostly drywall. You'll see it on all of those, whether it's CMU, drywall,

Jakob Datko: 16:24

or IMV. There's gonna be some system applicable for fire stopping?

Daniel Blatter: 16:28

So it sounds like there's really no project that's not in play. There's an opportunity for fire stopping.

Jakob Datko: 16:33

Attack anything we wanted to. Yeah. Mhmm.

Daniel Blatter: 16:36

So for each of you, have you done any projects that stand out for for any special sort of reason, or is it just kinda, hey, we get in, get out?

Jakob Datko: 16:45

Mine so far is just getting, getting out. I'm getting out because, I'm still newer to the game, but hopefully in the future, I could take on more intricate projects. I know Alan has quite a few projects that are good to note.

Alan McDurmon: 16:57

You could I mean, there's a lot that really come to mind. There's 2 in particular. One is a hospital in South Alabama. We went down and did work for Skanska, which was Beers at the time. Just changed it over to Skanska.

Alan McDurmon: 17:09

This tells you how long ago it was. We went and corrected some problems that they had. The state fire marshal had had done an inspection on a nursing home and kinda just drove by. Oh. Well, there was a fire and some people died.

Alan McDurmon: 17:25

And he assured that he would never have that problem again. So he he did his inspection on the new building. And then as he was going through, there was a couple places that were touching the old building, and he realized that there was no fire stuff on the entire hospital. The hospital was built in 1947. Wow.

Alan McDurmon: 17:40

So the whole hospital. I mean, it's a big hospital. So we wound up having 2 crews working, you know, 7 days a week. And because he told them point blank, if you don't fix it, then I'm gonna put chains in the door and lock it up. Wow.

Alan McDurmon: 17:54

I mean, it's that significant. So that one was kinda cool.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 17:58

That's historic. Yeah. That's yeah.

Alan McDurmon: 18:01

And then there was another one that we went we went to a project and looked at it with the insulators, for our group. They were trying to get a really large insulation kind of contract. And we kinda tagged along and wound up picking up the fire stop and didn't get the installation.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 18:18

Oh, no. Yeah.

Jakob Datko: 18:19

I tagged it a couple times for me too.

Alan McDurmon: 18:21

Yeah. It was a 2 and a half $1,000,000 job, and we made about 42% on it. That was really nice. It was really cool.

Daniel Blatter: 18:28

How does how does it feel to deliver a service that when you install it, you you hope it's never never seen, never never has to be used for its intended purpose?

Jakob Datko: 18:40

Yeah. It's definitely a lot of pressure for me, and, if you do your job incorrectly, people's lives are at risk, you know, so it makes me put in the due diligence to make sure I'm doing it correctly, but there's quite a bit of pressure for me and I'm sure for you as well, Alan.

Alan McDurmon: 18:55

It is. You know, the the guys that listen to this podcast that friends with are gonna laugh at me. But my favorite comment is, you get what you inspect, not what you expect. So if if we're gonna expect somebody to do something, we have to verify it. The QA is number 1.

Alan McDurmon: 19:10

You know, on every product line, don't get me wrong, but on this one that has, you know, life safety involved, it's absolutely

Jakob Datko: 19:17

true. Important.

Alan McDurmon: 19:18

Yeah. Extremely important. But I will say that I do sleep well at night knowing that I possibly saved somebody's life. My brother-in-law is a fireman, and he went on a job that, we had done actually. And he went into a condo, put out a fire, but the condo next door stayed complete.

Alan McDurmon: 19:35

You know, it lasted the wall, you know, maintained its rating, and and he didn't you know, it was it was pretty cool to

Jakob Datko: 19:42

see him. That's what Firestop is all about.

Alan McDurmon: 19:43

You know? It is. Yeah.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 19:44

It is.

Alan McDurmon: 19:45

Especially somebody you know.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 19:46

You know? Yeah. It sounds like there's just so much room, like, in in so many scopes, but for this one, particularly, just for for passion to really drive you.

Jakob Datko: 19:54

Yeah. It's not all about money, you know.

Daniel Blatter: 19:57

So if you were talking to a a recent grad, someone looking to get into, what would you say to them to convince them that working in Firestopping is important? What how how would you convince them to to join your team?

Jakob Datko: 20:09

That's a good question right here, and we definitely need more Firestop experts at PCI. It's not the prettiest thing we do, but it's important. If you have your heart in it and you care about people's lives, then I feel like it's an easy sell. If you're only about money and just money in your pocket, then he might not be a good fit for Firestop. I'm still figuring out that question right now.

Daniel Blatter: 20:32

Sure. And and you mentioned the pressure of it too. Yeah. I'm sure for a lot of people that pressure

Jakob Datko: 20:36

It's not worth it. Is the thing.

Daniel Blatter: 20:37

For some people it's not worth it. For others, they might feed on that pressure.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 20:40

Yeah. Yeah. So, Alan, how do you feed on that pressure after 22?

Alan McDurmon: 20:44

Well, so, okay. I started out when it was nothing, nobody even knew what it was and had to create something. Had some good mentors along the way that took me out of things that I thought I'd be in the rest of my life and didn't. But I don't know the answer because I've tried for years to figure it out. We have a really good group of younger guys that are coming up that really understand it.

Alan McDurmon: 21:06

But also, PCI is really good at helping to push it, and, you know, you have a a really good atmosphere. The best atmosphere. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah.

Alan McDurmon: 21:15

Out of places I've ever been. But it it's difficult. I mean, you know, because it being such a smaller part of what we do, a lot of times we are genuinely cradle to grave. You know, we I'll estimate it, I'll project manage it, I'll bill it, I'll do all that.

Jakob Datko: 21:29

And You do submittals as well and all the QA, just one person one person only. Yeah.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 21:34

Oh.

Alan McDurmon: 21:34

So it's you know, some of the bigger jobs, you'll have a, you know, a PM. But on the everyday jobs, I mean, I think I'm running 60 jobs right now. A guy in California, Bob, he he's got 10 pages on his CIP.

Jakob Datko: 21:51

Yeah. Bob's cranking out 2 estimates a day.

Alan McDurmon: 21:53

No. Before 4.

Jakob Datko: 21:54

All he's Yeah. 4 days just all by himself, and he's he's one of those good role models that we have as well.

Alan McDurmon: 22:00

Big props, Bob. There you go. But yeah.

Jakob Datko: 22:03

But Hopefully,

Alan McDurmon: 22:04

this answers to this. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta want it. You gotta whatever you do, you gotta do it with all your heart.

Alan McDurmon: 22:09

You gotta put your energy into it. You gotta want to do it. You gotta work the late hours. You gotta work weekends. You gotta, you know, let's be realistic.

Alan McDurmon: 22:18

You can't sell something you don't believe in. You know?

Roberta Coons-Redig: 22:20

That's, you know, that's so important. Is it typically one person, like, one fire stopping subject matter expert per branch? Or

Jakob Datko: 22:30

Yeah. I got some people in my branch helping me out as well, but typically one.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 22:35

Yeah. You're the go to. Yeah. Wow.

Alan McDurmon: 22:37

That typically is. I mean, you know, there's I'm very blessed. I have a superintendent that's been working side by side with me for almost the whole time

Jakob Datko: 22:45

Mhmm.

Alan McDurmon: 22:46

That I've been in the business. And he and I are very good at communicating, very good at understanding what is expected. But he and I kinda share that project manager role, because you have to. I mean, you know, otherwise, you're working till 1 every morning trying to get the bids out doing the PM. It's just part of it.

Jakob Datko: 23:03

You really need that communication between the office and the field too because you're you have 60 jobs. You can't see every single penetration on 60 jobs, so you have to have trust in your foreman. You have to lay out what you submitted for to make sure you're doing it correctly. If it's not the same, let me know. So I'm calling my foreman multiple times a day, and they've helped me out along the way quite a bit.

Alan McDurmon: 23:22

Yeah. So training is super important for the field to to understand what we do. And not just the manufacturer's training, you know, there's other options out there as well.

Daniel Blatter: 23:32

So when it comes to fire stopping, what challenges are there currently? I know a lot of a lot of other trades and branches.

Jakob Datko: 23:38

Self performing is a big problem.

Daniel Blatter: 23:39

Self performing is man manpower? Manpower

Alan McDurmon: 23:43

That's everywhere. Yeah.

Jakob Datko: 23:44

Everybody has manpower issues.

Alan McDurmon: 23:46

And Walmart is, man.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 23:47

Oh, PCI

Jakob Datko: 23:48

PCI always works it out. That's a good thing about PCI. If there's a manpower issue, we can solve that issue. Self performing is a big problem for me, and, just stop being out in the field that I didn't anticipate during bid time also leads to, quite a bit of problems for me. Yeah.

Jakob Datko: 24:03

You have a huge block out. I'm expecting just mechanical pipe in there, but then the electricians are running cables in there too. It's, a there's a wrench in it, and it's a you gotta stay on top of your stuff.

Alan McDurmon: 24:14

To piggyback off of him, I mean, the self performing is not only the MEP, the mechanical electrical plumbing trades, but also the GCs are getting into, you know, a lot of them are going back to the old style where they did some work themselves instead of just act like a construction manager.

Jakob Datko: 24:29

It's a common misconception too because they think it's more simple than it actually is. So, oh, it's just a hole in the wall. We can just do it ourselves, but just Rick, that's not that's not the case.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 24:40

Yeah. It sounds like there's an opportunity to maybe politely as we can, educate those GCs and, you know, the the people who are trying to say, oh, we'll just do this ourselves. We'll self perform. Be like, well, that's a lot of pressure for something that

Jakob Datko: 24:53

could definitely be, like, a next step for the FireSlop group because people don't know the ins and outs of it. Yeah. That's a good that's a good point.

Alan McDurmon: 24:59

It it grows though. I mean, you know, we did a job where they were doing their own work and, you know, they did a bad job, so we wound up having to fix stuff for them. But then they turn around and try to hire your your guys off Monday or yeah. It's it's a it's a slippery slope at best.

Daniel Blatter: 25:18

Now you both have already shared a couple myths.

Jakob Datko: 25:21

Misconceptions. Yes.

Daniel Blatter: 25:22

Myths. Misconceptions. Are there any others that you feel people have a preconceived notion of that might be good for you to clear the air and just put the truth out there?

Jakob Datko: 25:31

Alan, do you wanna take it away?

Alan McDurmon: 25:33

My very favorite one is the GC that comes to you and says, why can't we just put some foam in there? You're like so then you take the great foam that he gets at Home Depot or Lowe's or whoever, and you take a little piece of it and put it in the parking lot and set it on fire, and it just flashes. It's incredible.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 25:53

It's completely flammable. Yeah.

Alan McDurmon: 25:54

This is why. And he's like, oh. Or you show him the 3 m foam that you can put in there, and you show him the price of it. And he's like, well, we don't

Jakob Datko: 26:02

want that. These are different these are different options we could use. Yeah. You

Alan McDurmon: 26:05

wanna pay for this? I didn't think so.

Jakob Datko: 26:06

You pay for what you get.

Alan McDurmon: 26:08

Yeah. There are items out there that have helped. Like, for example, setting sleeves in floors when they're pouring concrete. I fought it for a long time, but I see the value in it with L T3MSTI. They all have cast in place devices that they line out the floor before they pour the concrete and the fire stuff's already there.

Alan McDurmon: 26:27

And and I get it. It makes sense.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 26:29

And those are all, concrete contractors?

Alan McDurmon: 26:32

Well, no. The MEPs set their own, and then the concrete comes and pours over them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's but it's really fun when they misplace them because they're really expensive to fix.

Jakob Datko: 26:44

Oh, no. So, yeah, so fun.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 26:47

Yeah. So

Daniel Blatter: 26:48

So do you see any future trends for Firestop, whether that be in the industry as a whole or for PCI?

Jakob Datko: 26:56

Yeah. I think I've touched on it. The sole sourcing is definitely a future trend. Ideally, we can use interiors and partner with them. They can put up the framing in the drywall, then we can own any penetration that goes through the drywall.

Jakob Datko: 27:10

So at some point, sole sourcing PCI as a fire stop contractor is very it could happen.

Daniel Blatter: 27:15

Brings us back to 1 PCG?

Alan McDurmon: 27:17

It does. It really does. 1 PCG is is a huge deal. There was a lot of fear when they first started talking about it amongst the the old ISSD versus the interior branches, old interior branches. But it's it's it's really gonna pan out to to really help the company as a whole to continue

Jakob Datko: 27:36

to grow. Out the GCs too. It's gonna help out with coordination and making schedule. It checks every single

Alan McDurmon: 27:42

box. And it continues to make PCI that super sub that can do everything, you know.

Daniel Blatter: 27:46

As we as we begin to wind this down, is there anything you 2 want to say about fire stopping, anything you want to say about 1 PCG as we wrap up?

Alan McDurmon: 27:55

I think it really comes down to, you know, being the guy that was doing this when everybody made fun of it and said, why are we doing that? It's a waste of time. Just if you believe in something, don't give up on it. Keep pursuing it. Keep pushing.

Alan McDurmon: 28:10

And look for the niche. Look for the niche because, you know, let's be realistic. And every estimator this here's this podcast is gonna say the same thing. It's that's where we make a lot of money. So so it's a it's a really good thing.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 28:24

Alright. Lightning round?

Jakob Datko: 28:26

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 28:28

Okay. Just for core value number 7, what is the weirdest food combo you enjoy?

Jakob Datko: 28:34

Might expose myself a little bit, but I do love ranch. You know, you dip pizza and ranch sometimes. Yeah. I have dipped like an apple into ranch and like a banana into ranch before

Roberta Coons-Redig: 28:46

which is

Jakob Datko: 28:47

which is weird.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 28:48

But it wasn't my gut.

Daniel Blatter: 28:49

You and my 5 year old daughter.

Jakob Datko: 28:50

That's like I'm a 6

Daniel Blatter: 28:51

year old, which I don't tell

Jakob Datko: 28:53

too many people that's typically why I'm just snacking alone. I'll do it, but, never in a public setting.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 28:58

Yeah. Well, it's okay. It's just us in this room. No one else

Jakob Datko: 29:00

is gonna know. Is gonna

Alan McDurmon: 29:01

hear that. So

Roberta Coons-Redig: 29:03

How about you, Alan?

Alan McDurmon: 29:04

I don't know. That's interesting. My wife makes fun of me for eating the raw sushi. The Oh. Everybody likes it.

Alan McDurmon: 29:12

I don't

Jakob Datko: 29:13

think that's too weird.

Alan McDurmon: 29:14

Yeah. I will tell you this. If you haven't tried it, take sweet potato fries and dip it in blue cheese dressing.

Jakob Datko: 29:20

It is I've I've also done that too. It is. It's good. Novel.

Alan McDurmon: 29:24

This is a weird what is that movie our kids watch? Ratatouille?

Roberta Coons-Redig: 29:37

Your favorite branch, not your own, that you've ever visited?

Jakob Datko: 29:41

Oh, yeah. It has to be, Phoenix for me. Yeah? A lot of good friends out there. I'd like to shout out Gary Taylor, Ryan Young, and, Keoni Kasbah.

Jakob Datko: 29:50

Great guys out there in Arizona, beautiful weather out there too, and they're they're killing it.

Alan McDurmon: 29:55

This was a really good question. I've only ever visited the other branch that I've ever visited was Knoxville. So they they I have to

Roberta Coons-Redig: 30:01

call them, but

Alan McDurmon: 30:02

but I'm fortunate to to talk to a lot of guys from different branches. And it's my favorite branch is ours. I'm not gonna know. Yeah. One01 is great and

Daniel Blatter: 30:13

nothing wrong with that.

Alan McDurmon: 30:14

Yeah. It is.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 30:15

Yeah. Nice.

Jakob Datko: 30:17

Yeah. It sounds like we're wrapping up. I'd like to thank you guys for having us, but one more shout out for me is, he helped me get in the Firestop and helped me out along the way is, Randy Johnson from the Vancouver branch, and he's been a huge help for me. Plus guys like Alan and Bob, Fantastic team, and, hoping to keep it going.

Alan McDurmon: 30:36

You know, it's it's really cool to have to be the what do the guys call me, the old head? Yeah. It's a happy experience. Yeah. And have them call our teams or whatever and ask questions.

Alan McDurmon: 30:45

And it's it's it's really encouraging to see the energy they have and to be able to to give them the knowledge or to help them, whatever. And to watch them take it and go with it instead of just want an answer and move on. You know, it's cool.

Daniel Blatter: 31:00

Well, hey, thank you guys again so much for joining us today. I know it was kind of a last Last minute thing, but

Jakob Datko: 31:06

That was great.

Daniel Blatter: 31:06

Hey, we really appreciate it.

Jakob Datko: 31:07

That was awesome.

Alan McDurmon: 31:08

I'm just excited to see it. It's good. And it's a long time coming.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 31:12

Yeah. It's, you know, and just keep taking off from here.

Daniel Blatter: 31:16

Alright. Let's go get some apples. Jacob, bring the ranch.

Roberta Coons-Redig: 31:19

Oh, yeah.

Jakob Datko: 31:20

Oh, you're a funny guy. Yeah.

Daniel Blatter: 31:23

Alright. Thanks, everybody.

Jakob Datko: 31:24

Thanks for listening.

Alan McDurmon: 31:26

Thanks, Sean. See you. Bye.