Feminist Founders Subscriber-Only Podcast

Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.163)
Hi, Faith.

Faith Clarke (00:02.068)
Hey, Becky. Before we start, how are you doing?

Becky Mollenkamp (00:07.785)
Well, we're not going to do the fake I'm okay thing. I have not been great. And that's just the truth. And I have been telling more people about that. Like I am, I've really been struggling the last two weeks or so. The first week following the inauguration, I was in a little bit more of this like fight kind of mode, I think. And I am now like, I have really, I think I have to call it what it is. I think I'm in a bit of a depression, which is tough because it's not how

Faith Clarke (00:12.418)
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (00:37.633)
I mean, obviously, don't think anybody who is depressed wants to be depressed, right? It's not something that we're like, I'm excited to be that way. But it's hard for me to own up to. Like, it does feel a little bit like a failing, which is not true. Like, intellectually, I know that. But emotionally, there's this part of me that's like, I should be able to just pull myself out of this. What's wrong with me? Stop this, you know? But the truth is, yeah, I think I'm a little depressed lately because of just the situation we're in in the world. And we don't have to talk.

Specifically about all the situations that are happening because there's just it's we couldn't anyway It would be irrelevant by tomorrow at the pace which everything's happening, but we were to talk a little bit about how we're just dealing with it So, how are you feeling?

Faith Clarke (01:13.974)
Right?

Faith Clarke (01:18.796)
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I, you shared the piece I wrote about why the inauguration didn't matter. And I, I'm glad I wrote it when I did it because I think by the day after I was like, what did I say? I need to, I need to reread my own words. Just the medicine, I just needed it. And every time I read something that reminds me of what I said there, I'm like, yeah, right. Because

the pace of not just the pace of what's happening, it's almost the pace of everybody's emotional reaction. And so I think for those of us who are also pretty connected to how, and we were all connected to how everybody is doing, whether we admit it or not. For both, those of us who acknowledge that connection in a really intentional way.

it does feel like a whiplash, the amount of churning in our collective emotional experience right now. And yeah, so there's a part of me that has been navigating that by trying to lean back from it every time. It's like, I don't surf, I don't swim, but I imagine waves coming towards me and the anticipation and I'm leaning back and backing off.

I can't do it fast enough. And so I think eventually, maybe about a week and a half in two, you know, almost two weeks in, then it was just the exhaustion of monitoring for waves, which in my body feels like depression, but it also feels like it's the low motivation as well as the will people even, my own stuff around voice comes up. Will people even be able to hear me?

in the chaos. I mean, it's easy for me to think nobody hears me anyway. So immediately, then will people even be able to hear me? so then, you know, almost like signaling the irrelevance of the work and the irrelevance of my place and that kind of thing. So it's it's been I'm glad that I, you know, have some practices to drop back into. your chest is tight. Let's relax your chest. your jaw is tight.

Becky Mollenkamp (03:15.402)
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (03:27.713)
you

Faith Clarke (03:43.714)
Let's, you know, and just to kind of give myself the tiny bits of space, maybe you should stretch in the mornings. Just to kind of this body that is smart and living like it's being chased by wolves, you know? Like, okay, fine. It's not that we're not being chased by wolves. Possibly we're being chased by wolves and I have things to care for. I kind of just act like I'm being chased by wolves, you know? So yes, and.

Becky Mollenkamp (03:59.361)
Yeah.

Faith Clarke (04:13.454)
And so just, you know, like I think we, we and I have talked about the importance of community and all of it, because there is no, there is no way to navigate danger on your own without kind of straight up, you know, run away from wolves or turn around to fight wolves, whichever one of them, you know, you choose. like none of that is the actual strategic thing that needs to happen.

Becky Mollenkamp (04:41.761)
Well, it's why I mean, humans are pack animals, just like wolves are pack animals, because wolves know they're stronger in a pack, right? You can maybe fend off one wolf, but when you've got 10 wolves coming at you, if you're alone, know, there's no like you're going to surrender, right? There's just no beating 10 wolves by yourself. And humans are the same way. Like they can get one of us, but they can't get all of us. And so we're stronger together. And so that is true. And when you start to feel depressed, when

Faith Clarke (04:56.364)
Right. Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (05:09.921)
the weight of it all starts to just feel like you're falling under it and you just can't get out, it becomes so hard to reach out to your community and do the things like just this morning. This is such a silly example, but like I've been feeling like I know I need to make healthier choices around what I'm putting into my body. And I know that if I made those healthier choices, I would feel less tired and exhausted.

because like I was getting some soda, some, cause I don't drink coffee. So soda ends up being my caffeine diet soda. Bad choice. I know this. But so I was there like getting this caffeine thinking if I were to drink water right now, that would actually probably make me feel less tired ultimately. But in this very moment,

I just need this shot of caffeine so that I can function right now. So it's like I'm making, you start to make these short term choices that in that moment feel good, but that you know ultimately aren't the right long term choices. And the same way with community where like if I would reach out to community, I know it would feel better, but in that moment, I feel like I just want to hide, right? Because in that moment, that's what feels good is for me to kind of cocoon in and just hide when I know like long term, the thing that's better for me would be community. There's so many examples of that.

That's one. Yeah.

Faith Clarke (06:25.218)
I think I heard an analogy recently. It was an analogy, it some data, but it feels analogous to what we're talking about. A speaker, she was making the point about, I guess, collective movement, right? But she was just describing what happens when droning is happening. So said, so it was some large statistic, like 90 % of droning is passive droning. And in the case of passive droning,

the look of the body is unable to look like drowning. It looks like some other thing until you're at the last, the very end. And so the person who is drowning cannot, and I think this is the counter to the point that we're often making, which is we should make better choices.

And you know that I tend to be leaning towards the 80 % collective responsibility versus the 20 % individual. And like when she was just on this, person is biologically unable to signal help, you know, or whatever it is because the body has taken over and is doing the things that it thinks it should do, which are speeding up the drowning. And,

But she kind of just leaned into this idea that if we're all in the water, then we monitor each other for drowning. And you also, what you're looking for is not help. And so this whole self advocacy and you know, ask for what you need and all this thing, which you know, I can get off on. It's just so, so much not what we can do when we need support.

communities have to be designed with the ability to monitor, even when I think about how my body is functioning. I went to the sauna yesterday and, you know, sweating out the whole, like I'm just sweating. And my heart is speeding up. And I was like, am I sick? Why is my heart speeding up? But I remember the guy explained that, my body is maintaining my core temperature. And to maintain my 98 temperature in 140 room, it's doing some extra work.

Faith Clarke (08:43.726)
without my permission. just, it's monitoring and it's adjusting. I like community has to be that way. Because if it waits until I am saying, hey, but by the way, I think your core temperature is speeding up, is heating up, you know, or whatever. And I, anyway, I just acknowledging that it would be great for you to be able to, I don't even think it would be great. But I think this idea that you in that moment should make the best possible choice versus

How do we design together to be, you know, somebody just walks over to me in my house and hands me my healthy beverage. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful, you know, and so.

Becky Mollenkamp (09:26.689)
Yeah, well, the thing about drowning, I've read about that before too. And it's the reason why, unfortunately with children, because children tend to be who drown the most often. But in any case, when people are drowning, people often don't recognize that person's drowning, like you were saying. because as soon as you're talking about that, it's like that clicked on immediately. It's not just, it's not on the drowning person because they can't, like you said. looks, often what it looks like is that they're just peaceful. And then all of sudden they're gone.

Faith Clarke (09:54.454)
Yeah. Yes.

Becky Mollenkamp (09:55.765)
Because then they go under the water and by then when they start to try to flail, no one can see them, right? Because they've already gone under and it happens all the time when people enter, when people are around people who've seen someone drown, they will say, we didn't know they were there was any trouble there. And I just think it's such a great reminder for us to think about, like immediately makes me want to reach out to my communities to say, like, how are you really? What can I do? How can I help you? What do need right now? Because, yeah, the truth is

Faith Clarke (10:09.965)
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (10:25.099)
That's what happens with me too. And probably all people. I think it's what happens to all of us. I start to this depression like this. It does feel like this wave of depression. And like, by the time I am starting to recognize I need to ask for help, like I, it's exactly that. I just don't even feel capable of it. Like it feels too heavy of a lift to ask me to do that. And I'm just like, no, all I want to do is just stay here in my comfy recliner underneath my blanket. And like, I think I go into freeze. Freeze is my most common, a flight flight.

Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. I am a freezer. That is, I know this about myself. I run first, right? So I tend to be a flight until I can't, and then I freeze. And I'm like, I think that was initially that first week. was like, I was actually in a bit of fight, which is not normal for me, but I was kind of in that fight space. And then when I start to feel like I can't, it's not gonna work because it's so much, it's so big. Like I get into that place of like, I'm helpless here. I can't do this. My fight doesn't matter or the flight.

Faith Clarke (11:05.09)
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (11:23.989)
doesn't work, I immediately go into this like, all right, well, I give up and I'm just gonna hide. Like I think I there's this feeling of like, if I can just hide under the blanket until the problem is gone, but this problem is not gonna be gone. Like I can't do that. If I hide under the blanket for however long this problem goes on, my bills don't get paid. My kid doesn't get to school. You know, my kid gets scared because mom's hiding under the blanket, right? So it's the reminder that I need to, you know, but again, like you said, it's hard.

when you're in that space to be like, I need to make the right choices here.

Faith Clarke (11:56.398)
I think too that in, I think there's a wisdom in the hiding, which is also the desire for comfort. And a friend of mine said it to me, say, when we're in grieving, it's a request for comfort and it's an invitation to community to offer comfort, to grieve with and building the kind of capability to not even need you to say that you're grieving, but to just be.

Becky Mollenkamp (12:06.741)
Yeah.

Faith Clarke (12:26.222)
you know, offering comfort to be like, this is the time we're in. Trauma-informed care in education and in even in therapy is just to assume people are traumatized. Listen, this is what's going on. People are traumatized. Right? And just go over the past 50 years and then back further, let us assume that people have had at least one acute childhood experience where trauma is concerned. So then let's just lean in to the regulation that

Becky Mollenkamp (12:37.705)
Yeah, it's collective trauma right now. We are all in, yeah.

Faith Clarke (12:55.926)
and offer each other without having, so a friend of mine, without having to ask and have people do this awful toxic thing which is validate their need for care. know, and so it's, that's, so a friend of mine said to me, we're talking about my upcoming workshop which I'd love us to, we'll probably link it or put it in the newsletter.

We're talking about my upcoming workshop and we hit record in zoom and she said, you know what you could do. And she gave me a bunch of suggestions, suggestions when I'm overwhelmed, just add to my list of things to do, you know, just like I felt. And like half an hour later, she said, you know, I love words. Why don't I write to you an article from our conversation? Just send me the transcript and the ease that I felt it was just like, Oh wow. Thank you. Yes.

And I just sent it to her and walked away and recognized that, that was care. That was just an act. It didn't even matter what kind of article she wrote. You know, it was just this, why don't I? I just, yeah, I guess that.

Becky Mollenkamp (14:05.857)
Yeah, well, I mean, I you know, my brother died in 2010 of a heroin overdose. I've talked about it a lot. And that was the most acute grieving experience I've ever had in my life. I mean, I've lost grandparents and a cousin and animals. like losing your brother, it was a very cute kind of grief I hadn't gone through before. And it taught me a lot about grief and how to help people when they are in grief. Because what we usually do is say, what do need?

Faith Clarke (14:30.232)
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (14:30.271)
Right. And I get that because like we don't if you don't know, you're not certain you and you don't want to overstep and you don't want to, you know, whatever. But what I learned is when you it's that same thing you're talking about, like you're already drowning. You can't say what you need. But if someone comes and rescues you, you're not going to say no. Right. You're to let it happen and you're going to be thankful after. And in grief, I feel like that's often what it is. It's like you just need somebody to come and say, I'm going to come clean your house just to show up.

and clean or show up with the meal and hand it to you or whatever the thing is, right? Like show up and say, I'm to take the kids and go take them out today. And you in the moment, like if somebody asks you, do you want me to come get the kids today? You're probably very often, you're not able to say, yeah, please. Right. Because of all of those things that have a shutdown, all of the guilt, all of the stuff that makes us think we can't. But if someone shows up and does it, you're so grateful. And that is so important for us to remember. It's like the, do you need right now? Even though I just said it, I'm going to reach out to my community and say, what do you need?

Faith Clarke (15:15.682)
Right. Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (15:25.663)
It's even better to think about those folks and think, what do I know that they need? Right? What is everyone needing right now? And how do I offer that? I also want to just quickly say, because I know, like I'm saying, I fight, fight, freeze, and I'm in freeze mode, and I could be making healthier choices. But also, I want to acknowledge myself for saying, like, this is what it is right now. Right? And you say, yeah, it's OK. Like, there's nothing wrong. Fight, fight, freeze. All of those things are designed to keep us safe. Right? And so me making

Faith Clarke (15:29.592)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (15:54.655)
Like going into that mode is not an inherently bad thing. In fact, it's usually an inherently good thing. It is when does it reach a point where it's no longer serving you, right? Once the danger has passed, the problem I think we have right now or that I'm experiencing right now because of just the daily onslaught of bad news, right? Even if it doesn't directly impact my world right now, it's still like just like the world around me feels scary and unsafe. And so.

I think it feels like there isn't a time when it passes and that's where it becomes hard because then you have to choose and actively like say, I'm going to face the fear even though it hasn't gone away, right? Like the lion is still out there. The lion is not leaving. Doesn't matter how long I hide here. He's pacing around and he's not going to go. So at some point I have to be able to eat. I have to be able to do things. I have to make a new choice. This freezing isn't solving anything. I'm going have to figure out how to face the lion.

Right? And that's the part that's really scary and hard to do. Eventually I will get there. But I do honor myself for comforting myself right now. Because sometimes I don't do that. And it's what I need. Like, my husband has been a little, like he comes home from work and he sees me sitting in this recliner. I'm sitting in the recliner in my office, this new little cozy spot I have given myself instead of at my desk, which is less comfortable, probably a little more productive. But I'm getting work done here at a slower pace.

in a way that feels really like I keep telling him it's like it's my little cocoon where I feel safe right now. And he doesn't quite understand it, but I explain it to him and he has stopped kind of giggling at it and being a little more honoring of what it is and that I need this right now. And I'm proud of myself for doing that. So like there is because I need it and that's OK. It's OK to admit that this is what I need right now and to also be conscious of it can't be forever.

And so I do have to start to think about what does it look like to face it, even if I'm not ready yet.

Faith Clarke (17:48.448)
I mean, think it can be forever, right? Because I think, I mean, because there is this, you you pushed back on professionalism recently. Like, where do we get the stories that have us saying this is not good? Like, if you ended up with some kind of chronic illness that required you to be using this recliner chair, this is the only way you can be semi-upright, you would...

Becky Mollenkamp (17:51.073)
Well, it could be.

Faith Clarke (18:14.99)
you would engage your own work through the lens of this need that you have right now. And there's something about kind of allowing ourselves to be in the moment we're in and be doing our best in that moment, whatever that best is, and kind of not be even judging the moment as, okay, this is a stopgap. Even saying it's a stopgap does something different than,

making it its own good moment, you know? And so, like this whole idea that fast is, slow is fast. Fast is slow, slow is fast. then what's, friend of mine as an engineer, a programmer like me, he was like, what's the best kind of code we can write? He was like, the code you can write right now, within the constraints of the moment you're in. Yeah, that's the best code. I mean, yeah, if I had 15 years to write this piece of code, I could, I don't know, but.

But that's not what I have, right? No, this is what I have. This this pain in my shoulder here and this maybe heaviness emotionally and this, right? This is what I have. And then my best is what I'm offering in that moment. And I don't know it. I, I, there's a story of this guy who military, I don't know if it was World War II or what, but they were a part of a group that was removing, I don't know if they were undetonated.

things in the ground, whatever they are, don't know, grenades or whatever, explosive entities in the ground undetonated across some kind of field. And it's treacherous. And so he, every time he went towards a thing in the ground could be his last moment. And the living with that built him this ability to kind of really be in the moment. This is the moment I have. And so,

Even outside of the war, what it showed up in his body as is like he's doing something, but then he sees a moment and he stops and goes and helps somebody and then comes back. It's a, there's a way that, okay, the lion is here and it could eat me next. So what am I doing with this moment? And I, that almost feels like a certain kind of training that many of us don't have. Cause we didn't live through those things that we don't have that kind of.

Faith Clarke (20:40.642)
We're still scared of lions. haven't lived and grown up with lions, right? And now the lion has shown up and yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (20:44.64)
Yeah.

And I was just saying, because I feel like there's also this, it's not an added layer, but just a difference in me being a white person in this moment with a good amount of privilege, because going back, what you just said, like, we don't have experience facing the lions. I feel like when I think about what you wrote after inauguration day, and I'm glad you're revisiting it, but I know that there's this disconnect that I see.

for a lot of folks who, especially black folks, but also people of other marginalized identities who are saying like, this is, you we've been living this way forever, whatever. And I do think there's this added layer that I have of being white and being like, in a lot of ways, it is new for me. Like I haven't experienced this lion. You've been dealing with a lion your whole life. I knew the lion was out there. I know people who've said, there's a lion. And I'm like, I get the idea of a lion.

And maybe I've kind of seen him through the bushes a few times, like with, you the Dobbs decision and there's been moments, right? But the truth is, Lion has been far enough away that I've always felt a relative safety. I knew he was out there, I knew it was possible he could get to me, but like, I've always had this distance that has afforded me a great deal of safety. And I think for the first time, the Lion actually feels like it's right there now, right? And so it's new for my nervous system in a way that I think for many people I know who have been

confronting the lion their whole lives, their nervous systems have adjusted in a different way. It's not healthy. It's not okay. It's still bad. But I think it's just, that's where I'm at. I'm like, Tiki, it's like, all of that is on me now where I'm like, holy shit, you mean the lion can get me too? Right? Like I knew theoretically, but now it feels like, no, the lion's really outside the door. And it feels so overwhelming to have that happen. And then there's also, you know, of course, even though intellectually I understand all the reasons why this is not helpful or useful.

Becky Mollenkamp (22:40.267)
there is that guilt that comes up too from that experience of like, man, like I knew the lion was out there and I've been like, I've been listening to my friends who've been saying the lion is here and I've been trying to be empathetic and I've been trying to learn and put myself in the shoes of that. But I didn't really get it. Like I got it, but I didn't really get it, right? And there's that guilt of like, that's just a reality I think.

So I just, for people who are white listening, who have privilege, who are listening, who maybe are in that same boat of like, we've always known they're true. Like we never were the people who were saying, no, there's no lion, stop it. Like we got that there was a lion and we tried to put ourselves in the shoes of the people who were dealing with the lion. But the truth is we couldn't fully understand it until the lion's outside our door. And now it's feeling more and more for many of us, like that lion really is now outside our door too. And so there's the like nervous system adjustment to it.

and the guilt that comes with that. So I just want to honor that for people who are experiencing that as well.

Faith Clarke (23:39.33)
I think, yes, there's a way that, part of how I share this with people sometimes is that the more multiply marginalized identities you hold, or maybe let's flip it around, the more power and privilege identities you hold, the more fragile you are through the lens of every one of those identities, you know, because...

Part of what centering does for all of us is it makes us blind to the experience of not being centered. And therefore, the skills, is is a, there is a, it's almost think about it like you're a person who's multilingual. Like there is a, there's the ability to shift from space to space and still keep yourself safe. The ability to know what's needed because of.

the marginalization because you have to be translating because you are not centered. You have to be bridge building because it's not your space. You don't belong. Those skills, don't, through the lens of our power identities, we don't have. So then when it's demanded of us, you're just like, wait, what? And I think that my entry into the US kind of made that clear for me because I moved from a place where

I was majority black and brown people. And so I had no mental perception of minority, whatever that was, you know, and, then to have a son with a disability and then to notice how that impact, you know, and then for him to be a black man, like all of the moment, the more layers of marginalized identity taken, then it's like, and it's interesting to me because resources just disappear and you

you get used to living in a certain resourced way. And then you get up close to one of these identities and then you see the resources drop away. And you're like, whether those are relationships or money access to or whatever it is. it, so I think there's something about this moment that I guess is helpful in all of us, right? But I, on my side of the street, I,

Faith Clarke (25:58.38)
because of my own voice things, it's hard for me to be in space where everybody is having a really big reaction because then it feels like I'm being callous and I just kind of, so I just pull back and just like, you have to do what you need to do. Whereas I know that this is not just a long game, this is like a lifetime game unless I choose to live in a different place.

Becky Mollenkamp (26:26.283)
Yeah.

Faith Clarke (26:27.22)
And I, you know, those thoughts are always, when people say to me, when people living in white bodies say to me, you know, it's let us for our country sort of, and I agree. I also am, and where else can my body just not be as activated as this, you know, and I'm happy to be in the fight. And also where can my kids be so that they,

don't have to live with this level of activation or in their case with the privilege that they've lived with so that they've lived with a certain kind of privilege and that means they don't know, they don't have the bolstering of anger and they don't have that bolstering because I've cushioned a lot of that for them. So now I'm like, wait, I don't want you to be angry, but also I want you to be safe.

And I, you know, so I'm also saying, yeah, this is good. I'm in a fight. And also, wait, I wonder what Costa Rica is like. Let me go check that again. You know, cause.

Becky Mollenkamp (27:33.055)
Yeah, it also makes so much sense when you, because you've mentioned before that you have that like as your core kind of wounding or core fear or whatever it is, it's like my voice isn't heard. People won't hear my voice. My voice doesn't matter, that kind of a thing. And it makes so much sense that it would be particularly triggering for you to be in spaces with people right now like myself. And so I like, I'm in, I'm at this moment. And I know, but just, I'm.

Faith Clarke (27:58.827)
You don't even apologize.

Becky Mollenkamp (28:00.597)
I'm not going to, I'm just going to speak out the, I'm speaking aloud what is going on in my head because we want to provide these sort of behind the scenes things. Because of course I'm grappling internally with this like, well, shit, I feel guilty about having this conversation with you as I'm, as I like this light bulbs going off for me, but we have, you invited the conversation and it's the point of the whole thing. So it's okay. But, and I won't apologize, but I can see where having conversations with someone like myself in this moment is triggering because what I would hear then is, but I, my voice has been, I've been saying this

Faith Clarke (28:05.742)
Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (28:29.749)
for all this time and only now when it affects you, are you hearing it, which would really activate that like my voice doesn't matter, my voice isn't heard. Like I can so see how that would impact that core wounding. And you know, this is, I'm just gonna say it. I have come to a realization that I feel like my core wounding is this feeling of I'm not special. No one cares about me the most, like, because I had a lot of abandonment issues and that kind of stuff that left in this feeling of like, I don't feel

It's not, I mean loved, yes, but because I'm not special enough to be loved, right? And so this core wounding I have is like, the way that shows up is like, want to be, I need to be the person you like the most. I want to be everyone's favorite person. need to be, like, I need, like, I'm always kind of going that way to try and compensate for this feeling of not being special. And I think part of what's happening in this moment for me too then is the wounding of like, shit, I'm not special.

I'm affected too, right? Like my specialness is not like, once again, I'm not special enough to be saved in this moment or something. So it's just interesting the ways our core wounding can show up. I do relate to you on this, like the way that it's showing up that I'm sort of finding that empathy on the other people coming to it kind of thing is watching my white husband in the moment, this white man in my life, experience the same thing that I'm experiencing. And it's so evident that

it is not effect like that he doesn't feel threatened. Like I don't think he feels like I think he can see me saying there's a lion outside. But when he looks out the window, he's not seeing it. And it's a struggle for him to get to a place of empathy and not come across as condescending or like stopping hysterical or you know, because I think he doesn't really see the lion. Like I think he knows that I see a lion and he believes me that I see a lion, but he's like,

I don't see it yet. So I'm not sure what's, know, and it's just, I, and then of course that also brings up all the guilt of like, shit. So that's probably how I have been with other people in my life who have more marginalized identities, even when I, because I know he cares. I can feel that he wants to see the lion, right? But he can't. And I feel like that's probably how I've shown up even against my, like, you know, trying not to. So anyway, that's how we are. Now what?

Faith Clarke (30:52.534)
A friend of mine, well, everybody's my friend. My partner keeps saying everybody's your friend. But this person was a client on a board I was working with and the organization did anti-racist work, does anti-racist bridging work, equity outcomes that are kind of different for black and brown people versus white counterparts. And as a white woman,

Becky Mollenkamp (30:55.969)
Hahaha

Faith Clarke (31:20.352)
She was just, I appreciated her framing it this way, because I've used a similar frame in my own home with my kids. She said, when the black community members are speaking to me and saying, are, this language you're using is racist, or this position that you have is based on your privilege, and I have no idea what they're saying. I'm just like, nothing. I'm really tempted to say, you sure?

It's like, you know, explain whatever, right? Just no idea. I remember those moments when I would say to my husband, this and this and this is, it's your madness or it's your, you know, whatever. You're treating me this way because I'm a woman, whatever it was. And he'd be like, you're sure? You know, that's about you though, you know? And she says, every time I'm in that moment, I hold the other moment.

with my husband, like he was, he had honestly no idea and I'm speaking an absolute truth. And so then I take that into the moment and I said, there may be speaking an absolute truth and I just have no idea. And it brings the pause. And I appreciated it because that's what disability did for me in terms of my son and just noticing that. And I think every time we encounter it, cause we will keep encountering it.

There'll be identities that will show up in our own lives that will become marginalized. There are marginalized identities we have now that will become power identities in 10 years because of who's in government. then it's all gonna be a moving target. So the skill of saying, wait, what's going on? How is power moving? And I don't know, but this person could honestly be telling me the truth. And then what did I want?

when I was in that moment. And so she's like, what I wanted my husband to say is pay attention, to listen, to kind of, right, not make it specifically about me, but kind of do some internal thing and understand that this is systemic. And so I think that's.

Becky Mollenkamp (33:21.941)
Right.

Becky Mollenkamp (33:27.477)
I fully feel it. That is what I've tried to do too. I've always tried to think about that same thing of like, where do I have that identity that is marginalized and how can I go there and think about that? It's just a different experience, I suppose. Like that's empathy, but it's not an actual, it's like being able to try put yourself into someone else's shoes without actually wearing the shoes. And I think it's different when you start to wear the shoes, you're like, this is, it's kind of what I thought.

feel like, but a little different, right? And it just, it's a different experience. But I do think the big key things I think that we need to be teaching kids is empathy and curiosity, right? That empathy to think about where can I find an experience in my life that allows me to understand or try to understand that person's experience. And then because in those moments, what do I want? I want my husband to get curious.

I don't want judgment. don't want defensiveness. just want him to say, what does it feel like? What do I need to know? How can I help? What should I be doing? Right? Like get curious. Yes.

Faith Clarke (34:32.662)
You want to be believed. You want to be believed. Your story needs to credible all on its own, even if you are the single solitary only one having this experience. Like you don't want to be blamed. Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (34:42.207)
Right. Yeah, and it's so true in anything, isn't it? It's just not just about this moment. And then have that person get curious. Like that's because we always feel better when someone starts to ask us questions about what we're going through versus either telling us it's not real, right, or telling us what they think we should be doing. Instead, just get curious. I mean, I think that's just so valid for anything in life. So like empathy and curiosity. And so I think for me right now,

coming to like, what do I do in this moment? I think part of it is having empathy for myself, right? That piece of like, it's okay if I need to cocoon. And then to get curious about what's going on right now, what am I needing? What could others do for me? Like, I don't know, I think just to allow myself to be curious for myself. I'm just trying to kind of come away with this like, of like, now that I have to solve it.

I think that's also important for us to say, right? You don't have to solve things. There doesn't always have to be a lesson. But I do feel like as I'm kind of exiting this conversation, I think that's where my head is at. It's like, how do I do for myself what I want others to be doing in that moment? Not to solve it, but just like, what do I need? And what I need is compassion, and I need curiosity. So I can be compassionate for myself, and I can get curious for myself. Those are things I can do from this cocoon. And so that feels like workable, you know?

Faith Clarke (35:35.8)
Yeah, you're right.

Faith Clarke (36:06.062)
And I think, like for me, I think about how do I invite others into the care I want to receive, right? Because if they're closer, then they can more naturally just offer something to me. So how do I not have to be any different than I am right now and still let that be seen by others and offer what's available, what I have to offer to another person. So in other words, how do I build community

for the me that I am right now. And the me that I am right now is not outgoing right now. I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not jumping hoops. But that person can be in community as well and be, how do I cultivate, you know? So what's the wisdom from myself about this? I also have a friend whose, her question is always, what are you practicing?

There's a thing to be practicing. It doesn't have to be an effortful thing. It could be, like I'm saying, release my jaw. I'm like, okay, right. Again, just release it, drop it into the floor. I might drop the tongue into, you know, that it could just be that this body is asking me to practice those things. That's what I'm practicing.

Becky Mollenkamp (37:23.655)
My practice right now is non-judgment of self. That's the thing, because I can hear it coming up a lot because this feels like, like it doesn't feel like a tenable solution, but also it doesn't have to be like you said, or maybe it can be if I could just release the judgment around it. And so I just need to, I just want to keep practicing non-judgment as that voice pops up saying, you shouldn't be doing this. You should be doing that. Whatever to just sort of say, this is what I'm doing now. And that's like, that's it. It doesn't even have to be that it's okay, but just

Faith Clarke (37:26.402)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Faith Clarke (37:40.62)
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (37:52.981)
This is what is, this is what's happening now and try to release the judgment. I love that.

Faith Clarke (37:55.822)
Yeah, I think the last thing I would say here is when we think about feminist founders, I know that I cannot include in others what I'm unwilling to include or unable to include in myself. So this whole, the way society has kind of shaped us is in this,

Becky Mollenkamp (38:15.745)
you

Faith Clarke (38:24.866)
This is a waste of time. Is this productive? Whatever it is, right? And there is no way that our own kind of understanding of this stuff and how it's impacting us, there's no way this is not productive. Clearly I'm not forming my sentence as well. You'll fix it in the copy. The deep self-knowledge and then the deep self-acceptance and the deep...

Like, how do I design my business to include me, honestly? Like, that's the only way that we're going to heal these systems, right? Because what we've done is say, there is a caricature of what is to be the productive human, and it's this box, and you must fit into it. Unless you're a white male, you know, rich hetero. Yeah, that can be anything they want.

Becky Mollenkamp (39:01.536)
Yeah.

Becky Mollenkamp (39:14.104)
Yeah, then you just be mediocre at best.

Faith Clarke (39:20.118)
And so, yeah, I just really feel that as we do this wrestling, ask these questions of ourselves, it just empowers us to create workspaces that heal the gigantic wound that we're seeing festering all over the place. And even to create new cells that are producing life, even while things are dying, because it must. The things that are dying just must die. And it'll feel awful. And...

we are birthing some new things and how do we birth things that actually have different DNA, you know?

Becky Mollenkamp (39:55.137)
I love that. It goes, yeah, what I shared on LinkedIn about being professional and professionalism, mean, professionalism as a concept is incredibly sexist and racist to begin with. We know that. And if we're feminist founders and trying to think about business differently, you're right, we have to start with ourselves. And so I'm giving myself what I need and I'm proud of myself for that. The piece that I want to keep working on then is not judging myself for it because I agree.

Faith Clarke (40:06.574)
Absolutely.

Becky Mollenkamp (40:22.707)
I can't work with others in the way that I want to and say that I'm about dismantling all these systems in our workspaces if I'm internally still judging myself for showing up this way. I can't do that. Like that's, it's dishonest. And it just doesn't, it's not sustainable. And so, yeah, the practice is with myself. Can I get to the place where I can say, this is how I need to show up. This is what I need right now. And that's okay. And it doesn't have to be professional. It doesn't have to be productive. It doesn't have to fit any of the bullshit that we've been told.

Faith Clarke (40:29.485)
Yes.

Becky Mollenkamp (40:52.563)
And I can do it without judgment. Like I'm giving myself the space to do it, but I'm still, I can still hear that voice. I can still hear the judgment creeping in. So that is my continued gift I will give myself is to keep working through the judgment. And I'm to stay in this damn recliner as long as I need to, to be able to do it without the judgment. And I actually think that that's a way of shifting this to looking, this is like a gift I'm giving myself because it's a way for me to keep challenging these systems. So I love that. Thank you.

Faith Clarke (41:19.33)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, cool.

Becky Mollenkamp (41:21.717)
Thank you, Faith. I just, again, I'm grateful to be doing this work with you, and you're awesome.

Faith Clarke (41:31.47)
Thank you. Thanks for.