Feminist Founders Subscriber-Only Podcast

Welcome to the Feminist Founders audio series event. This is a bonus for paid subscribers of the feminist Founders's newsletter. So if you're here, thank you so much for your support. I am so excited to bring to you in this series, some incredible thought leaders who are going to share insights about doing business differently in a way that honors equity and social justice. I hope that you learned so much from this. Let's dig in.

Becky Mollenkamp: Hello friend. Thank you again for being here and listening to these incredible conversations. I hope you're enjoying this series as much as I had a great time recording it and having the conversations to begin with today is a conversation with my friend Erica Courdae, who also has a Substack newsletter which I will link to in the show notes so you can go subscribe. She's another incredible coach. I recently became acquainted with her earlier in this year and we've become good friends. We're in a mastermind together and I really, really love having conversations with Erica. She's so smart and always makes me feel so challenged and yet held. It's wonderful. And one of the areas of her focus is shadow work. In fact, she has a whole journal that helps people do shadow work called “Who Are You,” which I will link to in the show notes. It's fabulous, and I thought it would be cool to have a conversation about shadow work because it's something we hear a lot about, but I don't know if everyone fully understands it. I know I didn't. And so it was really a great conversation to hear about shadow work, what it means, how to do it, and how it relates to interdependence, not just internal work, but being in community. Really fascinating conversation. I hope you enjoy it, and thank you again for listening.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi Erica, thank you for doing this. I am such a fan of yours, as you know, and also so excited to be in community with you now and learning from and sharing with you in a more personal way and becoming friends and all of that is so special to me, and I'm really thrilled to share your work with people. I'll share your Substack with the listeners so they can find you there as well. And you talk a lot about interdependence, and we're gonna talk some about that. The way I kind of want to approach it though is that you also talk about shadow work. In fact, you have a journal that people can buy. I will link to it where you help people with some of that shadow work. And I'm hoping you can start by telling me what shadow work is. I think a lot of us have heard about it. I don't know if we all actually have a shared understanding of what it means. So if we could start there, I think that'd be super valuable.
Erica Courdae: I'm so glad to have this conversation with you, Becky. So thank you for having this place where we can start off with a shared understanding of what shadow work means when we're talking about this here. So often words are conflated and when we don't pause and have clarity on what does this mean in this conversation, in this context when we're bringing it up. Let's make sure that we're on the same page. It creates a very different level of understanding in a different texture to the conversation. So for me shadow work is the act of exploring who and how you are within the frequently unexplored parts of yourself. Is it how you think, how you exist, how do you process the experiences that you've had, how is it that you intersect with them? If someone harms you, do you justify? What they did to you, do you lash out because of what happened, do you just pack it away because you don't want to think about it in any way, shape or form. These are sometimes the ways that we navigate what's happened to us, but we don't always process our experiences all the way through. And so if we had something that was traumatic, sometimes we put it in this shadowy corner, we put it under the bed, we put it in the top of the closet, and in these areas exist within our mind, within our bodies, and we just kind of put it away and we don't deal with it, or we're afraid to deal with it, and we're just not ready, and so we pack it away and we don't complete the processing of it. What we don't realize is how it can come back up when we least expect it, whether we recognize it or not, and it can impact what we do in our day to day life. It can change the way that you're able to receive support, it could change the way that you process yourself and your own value and self-worth. It can completely shift your ways of interacting and being in relationship with others because it all starts with the ways that we are in relationship with ourselves. And so when we pause long enough to really question, who am I, how am I intersecting with others, how do I hold space for myself, and we begin to go deeper than the surface and really ask ourselves these questions with what we've experienced in the past, how we're existing in our present and what we want for our future, that's where the shadow work really does come up, because we have to ask the hard, big questions and be willing to do the work to get to whatever the answers are, and the answers usually aren't the very first answer that we get. So, it's a game almost of persistence. The other thing that I think it's important to acknowledge is that trauma is something that comes up in many ways, shapes and forms. And I am not a licensed therapist. I am someone that believes in supporting us in working on starting our own healing journey and understanding that healing happens in community and I think that there are certain things that people experience that do require a licensed clinical therapy in different ways, shapes and forms. So, shadow work is not something that I believe replaces therapeutic methods. I believe that working through shadow work, whether it's in a community through conversation if it is, you know, independently through journaling, that this is something that is added on to the therapeutic methods. I don't think that one replaces the other in any way, shape, or form, and before we had therapy, we healed in community with one another. So I think it's important to be able to utilize the components that you have access to in order to address your healing, but you know that healing is not something that happens in a vacuum, it does happen in community. And whatever your journey is, never feel as shame to explore what it is that you need to facilitate your healing and your processing and again it is the therapeutic pieces along with community and individual pieces as well.
Becky Mollenkamp: That last bit that you touched on about community and personal pieces of shadow work is where I want to go, but before we do I feel like I wanna ask you how you got to this place of doing more of this shadow work with folks. I know that if you, up to a few years ago and maybe still somewhat, but I think at one point, your primary focus of your business was more of the DEI space and I know you had frustrations and things that led you to wanting to either do less or none of that. Now and really shifting the way you're showing up with your coaching and the work you're doing, and I know the shadow work is a big part of where you are now. I'm wondering if you can just give me a little bit of what the journey was that brought you to doing the work the way you're doing it now. And if your own shadow work was a part of that process, perhaps?
Erica Courdae: This is such a good question and a big question all at the same time shadow work is an ongoing thing. There's no destination for it, so it's work that's always present. I think before I even really had a word or a term for it it was something that I would do, being self-reflective and asking good questions has always just been a part of how I operate as a person, no matter whether it was personally or professionally. So, when I was doing the DEI work, which I was doing before 2020, but of course 2020 definitely shifted some things unfortunately, some things have shifted back and not for the better, it was always there. People would always comment on the good questions that I would ask and how it made them think and how, yes, they were hard questions and sometimes they would feel the resistance to answering it or digging into it, but they knew the good that would come of it. They knew the benefit of it. And I kind of held them to that, and that was actually something that a lot of people not only appreciate fun but they will either come to me for it or sometimes know me for that. And it was also, I think, a large part of the podcast and that I don't think any type of work is just about the love and light of it. I feel like love and light can very easily be spiritual bypassing, but just bypassing period. So, the reality is I was inadvertently doing the shadow work and when I hit the point that I had gotten fried in a way that I needed to shift things when it came to the diversity, equity and inclusion work it really just took me back to the roots and the foundations of it, because creating equity and acknowledging the diversity that exists and being able to figure out where justice and belonging comes in. These are all pieces of interdependent community as far as I'm concerned, so work technically isn't different. The approach is what's different. And the quote unquote labeling of it, which I think labels at some point just end up being for people that need a language for things. I think language is important, but the label doesn't matter if the work isn't being done, so the work being done is way more important than the labeling of the very limited English language in what we choose to put on it. A when it comes to my own shadow work again, I've always been that person and, and my friends circle like I'm known as the one of like, oh, like she, she's gonna hold your feet to the fire, so to speak, but she's gonna ask you the things she is going to be the one to not allow you to play small. And so I try to be very cognizant of not taking anyone on something that I wouldn't take myself on so I'm not going to require someone to look at their past experiences and how that shapes their present perceptions if I'm not willing to do that for myself in the way that I interact with others. So my own shadow work is constantly there and that was also a part of me choosing to finally become an author, and release the book in that literal I had to put this out into the world. Because it was a hard and scary thing for someone that has written for the majority of their life that required me to make a movement in a direction that had been tough for me. So, my own shadow work is always present, which is why I feel very comfortable and confident to Invite other people to explore along with me. And all of it is about the roots of what we, you know, now call diversity, equity and inclusion. It may have justice on it. It may have belonging on it, it may have any of these letters on it, but at the end of the day, it's all about what we want to create for one another and how it is supportive.
Becky Mollenkamp: You mentioned a little bit about interdependence there as you're talking about equity and justice and DEI work and how the shadow work related to what you're doing with that. I'm wondering if you can dig in a little more to tell us how shadow work, which sounds very individual, plays a role in creating more interdependence and less independence, which I know is part of this bigger vision for how we create more equity and social justice. So if you could just do a little explanation of how shadow work relates to creating more interdependence. I think that'd be really helpful.
Erica Courdae: Traditionally, healing clearly wasn't therapy. Healing happened in community. Healing happens in groups, it happens with our neighbors. It happens with our family members, those that we are related to by proximity, by blood, by trauma, by triumph. And so when we are acknowledging how healing happens. The reality is that traditionally, it was done because we were part of the unit and we have, especially here in the US, been conditioned to be so separate, so individual. And in order to figure out how to come back into the fold and be a part of the unit, we have to identify where some of our traumas are and how they have caused us to feel like we have to only depend on ourselves and cannot trust others or how our trusting of others has maybe conditioned us to think, I need to be alone because I cannot trust others and the reality is is a lot of the harm that has happened has been because the systems have be designed to force us apart. And so in order to figure out how to come back together, we have to figure out what is keeping us apart. So, of course, there's the systemic part of it, but there's also what has happened to us individually that we don't process or that we are holding on to in a way that we are letting it change where we are presently and where we are going in the future. So in order to figure out how to better combine with others, how to be more open to being a part of an interdependent unit, interdependence being the fact that we all are dependent on one another. We all are a part of making sure that everyone is cared for. We all are a part of making sure that our day to day needs are met and that things run as smoothly as possible and that we are caring for and protecting and honoring one another. But if we can't figure out how to do that within ourselves. It is really challenging to do that for someone else or to receive someone doing it for us, offering us that type of gift. If we somehow have a belief consciously or, you know, within our subconscious that we don't realize is showing up that we don't deserve this type of treatment. We don't deserve the support, the honor of this care. It's really difficult for us to receive and to allow others to give it. It's difficult for us to give it to others and then to trust that it's coming from us in an altruistic way. So we have to be able to identify what would support or undermine our efforts of being in community with others by beginning to heal. What is happening within us and setting ourselves up to heal with one another going forward?
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you, and when I hear shadow work and maybe when other people do as well, I think about the things that we keep hidden, we keep in the dark, that we don't want to see your face. It feels heavy. It can feel lonely. It certainly can feel scary to face those things. There's something about the term ‘shadow work’ that makes me feel like I'm facing demons or something, and so I think for many people the thought of it can sound scary. Is it scary? Is it hard? How do you, what would you say to people who are feeling like, shadow work, I don't know, that sounds like something that I'm not sure I want to do because it sounds scary or heavy?
Erica Courdae: I can absolutely see how that thought and that feeling comes up, but I'll also acknowledge that life is scary and and having some problems and there's a lot of layers to it and it's not always something that we choose to kind of, you know, go headfirst into because it is a lot and evolution and growth does not happen, staying in the comfortable parts of life or of ourselves. I think if we are trying to evolve and grow, ee have to do the things that are sometimes scary. They do sometimes feel hard. And we have to confront the parts that we otherwise would much rather deny or ignore or just tuck in the shadowy corners of ourselves. Do I think it's necessarily any harder than going through therapy or any other types of, for example, somatic healing modalities? No, however, it's really hard for anybody to tell someone else if something is easy or hard. Is it worthwhile? I can share that it has supported me greatly. I can share that I've witnessed other people that it has supported greatly and if you provide a lot of clarity, and it has been very helpful. But I think it's also very important for us to have to individually take responsibility for our own growth and doing the hard part of this, this experience of life. And only you can decide how hard or not, it feels for you at any given time and none of this is static, so it's not like, oh, it's hard right now, so it'll always be hard or, oh, it's easy right now, so it always be easy. There's always a certain amount of ebb and flow and
Some situations may feel different than others, certain, uh, at certain points your capacity may be different, so you're access to do something and not be the same. So I think whenever we think about the ease or lack thereof, when it comes to shadow work or any other type of healing. No one else can decide what it is for you. It’s a continuum, it's a process, it's like the tide, it's gonna ebb and flow, so there's no static answer to it. And to not do it and to stay stuck, if that is what you want, then I hope it works for you. But typically, with the type of growth that a lot of people want. It does require us to do the hard things. So we have to be resilient in the face of what feels scary. However, life is scary sometimes, so I think that there's more capability to face those types of things, then maybe we recognize sometimes.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that. Life is scary sometimes and if we want to change or see movement and progress, we have to be willing to do the work. You don't get the plants blooming in your garden without getting your hands messy, right? So for people who've listened to this and are interested in doing shadow work, obviously I'm going to recommend your journal called “Who Are You: a shadow work journal for self-exploration,” which I will link to and they can find on your website to purchase, but for folks who are inspired by what you've shared. Can you leave us with a place for them to start, maybe 1 or 2 questions or, you know, thought starters, prompts that can get people beginning to do a little of this exploration and maybe a flavor of what they will find if they dig into your journal for self-exploration?
Erica Courdae: Of course, Becky, and thank you for having this conversation because I think when words and concepts get thrown around, especially on the scary worldwide interwebs, you don't always know what it means or we run the risk of having misconceptions of what things mean or we tell ourselves. This is the truth, and maybe that's not always it, and we live in ourselves. So I think it's important to really just be like, you know, what is this, what's possible and to just kind of think a little bit beyond what we maybe already know and just answer questions and get curious. So, I think if you want to start this off, one of the things that makes it a little different when I do it is that I add poetry in because I feel like sometimes to just kind of go and be horizontal on the therapy couch or to just kind of sit with a journal and a pen. I don't want to just write. It can sometimes be a little scary. And so when I add that poetry in, it helps to kind of take a little bit of that edge off sometimes and maybe give you a bit of a springboard. The other piece is it sometimes might just be helpful to start by contemplating it. And one of my favorite prompts, which is in the book, it always kind of gets people going is, who have you been that you never consented to be? And it's really based around the concept of, you know, what role in your life have you had to play that you didn't choose, you know, is there a parent that you needed to parent, that you did not do to to to to play that role, you know, is there a kind of being the proverbial adult in the room that you didn't choose to do this when it comes to maybe a friend group or maybe in the neighborhood and you're having to kind of play this leader, but you didn't really ask to do this. So I think sometimes when we think about where are some of the places that we're having to show up in a way that we didn't ask for this? But yet here we are. It can get us to really begin to peel back those layers of what is here that I have acknowledged. But what's below that, that maybe I have yet to acknowledge. I think it's a great place to start if you're curious about this. That does not have you going deeply into the deep end of the pool. You know, you can keep your floaties on for a second and acclimate to the water. And you can begin to give yourself an opportunity to go deeper, little by little.
Becky Mollenkamp: Erica, thank you so much for your time and for participating in this and sharing your wisdom. I always love having conversations with you. I just want to finish by asking where people can find you, learn more about you, connect with you. I will link to your Substack, but if you want to share other places where people can find out more about your brilliance.
Erica Courdae: Absolutely, Becky and again, thank you again for inviting me to be a part of this, but also just for facilitating it for the people. Thank you. So again, my name is Erica Courdae. You could find out more about me at Ericacourdae.com. There you'll be able to find out about the books that I have previously released and the new release is coming up. You'll be able to find out about any of the program offerings that I have as well as learning more about the way that I facilitate work using the Five Pillars from Curiosity to Community. I also talked about that and share about it on Instagram and Threads @EricaCourdae, and I welcome you to follow on Substack to know what's going on, to be able to connect with me, so thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp: Isn't Erica the greatest? I just love her. I hope you enjoyed hearing from her, learned a lot, can take some of the prompts and tips that she gave and put those to you. So thank you again for being a paid subscriber, for listening to this episode, and again, I will be back in your ears with a new interview in your private podcast feed on Monday.