Feminist Founders Subscriber-Only Podcast

Becky Mollenkamp: Welcome to the Feminist Founders audio series event. This is a bonus for paid subscribers of the Feminist Founders' newsletter. If you're here, thank you so much for your support. I'm excited to bring you some incredible thought leaders who are going to share insights about doing business differently in a way that honors equity and social justice. I hope you learn a lot from this. Let's dig in.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hello, welcome back. Today, I'm speaking with Jo-Ann Finkelstein, who is a clinical psychologist and writer. She has a book coming out next month or in September of 2024, depending on when you're listening to this, called Sexism and Sensitivity: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World. She's also an expert blogger for Psychology Today, and her writing has appeared everywhere, including my favorite, Ms. Magazine. She also has a Substack called The Feminist Parent, which is linked in the show notes. I hope you enjoy our conversation on feminist parenting.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi, Jo-Ann. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. You are an expert on parenting through a feminist lens, which is so important for many of the folks who listen to or read Feminist Founders. They are business owners and parents, and those are two challenging things to juggle, especially for women or AFAB folks who are often culturally conditioned to take on more of the parenting responsibilities. When you're running a business and doing more than your share of the parenting, it can be a real challenge. Maybe the best place to start is by exploring what changes when we think about parenting through a feminist lens. What's different from the traditional view of parenting?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: The biggest difference is a greater awareness of the inequality inherent in heterosexual relationships and having the language to describe the frustration many women experience, especially once kids come along. Women employed outside the home still shoulder about 65% of caregiving and household responsibilities, even if they work outside the home and earn as much as their male partners. Every mother I know complains about the mental exhaustion of managing all the tiny details of making a household run smoothly. They're deeply frustrated, enraged, resentful, and sometimes divorced because they can't seem to make their male partners understand. This work is usually taken for granted and is dubbed "invisible labor" for a reason.
On a more positive note, feminist parents are likely raising a generation who will find more equality in their relationships than their parents did. They'll raise girls who expect more and boys who are, fingers crossed, able to give more. When you approach parenting from a feminist perspective, you're much more conscious of inherent biases in how you raise your kids. A feminist parent might be more likely to notice if they're interrupting their daughter more than their son or be mindful of ensuring their daughters feel free to assert themselves while helping their sons not dominate conversations around the dinner table. My hope is that when our daughters enter the workforce, they won't be as taxed as mothers are today, but of course, we also need far more government support and policy change, at least here in the US.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's a fantastic starting point, and thank you so much for sharing it. I'd like to go now to the piece you wrote called Rewriting Motherhood that you shared back in May. I'll link to it so people can read the whole thing. You say that in the last couple of decades, motherhood has become harder both economically and culturally, and yet it's still paid little respect. Mothers today dedicate almost double the time to daily childcare tasks compared to six decades ago, even though moms are much more likely now to be working outside the home. That boggles my mind—at a time when we are doing more and have less community or village support, we're doing double the work at home. So really, that means we're doing triple or quadruple the work because we're also working outside the home and often have less support systems than we did six decades ago.
Could you give us a CliffsNotes explanation of what it would take, as you say in the subheadline, for women's work to be recognized as the vital force it is, and without having to revert to the "trad wife" BS? What would it take for all of this work that we're doing to be recognized as vital and for us to be doing less work?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: My subhead was slightly different—it wasn't "what would it take for women's work to be recognized as the vital force it is," but rather "what if women's work was recognized as the vital force it is." I can see what the future would be like if it were valued, but not necessarily how we get there. Sadly, I think men would have to take on more care work for it to actually be valued. In a capitalist society, it would need to be paid, and maybe it should be. Unpaid care and domestic work is valued to be between 10% and 39% of the gross domestic product and can contribute more to the economy than the manufacturing, commerce, or transportation sectors.
We'd also need to stop raising the bar on motherhood and domesticity every time women make strides in the workforce and elsewhere because the more stressed out we are, the harder it is to appreciate anything. In the piece, I talk about not appreciating care of myself and potentially making my own life harder by trying to skirt it or not learning additional skills, but honestly, when would I have had time? There's kind of a circular logic to it because if I hadn't resented it or been resistant to it, it might have been easier. If male partners helped out more with caregiving, and the government made childcare affordable and workplaces built in variable paths to success, it would start to be valued more. But that won't necessarily happen until it's recognized as the vital force it is.
Ultimately, I think if people were to get a real taste of what it means to have a life that balances their need for autonomy and industry with the things that can only come from care work—connection and emotional fulfillment—they wouldn't look back. As a society, we'd be able to value both equally. The "trad wife" only speaks to one end of that and requires a sacrifice of other skills, talents, and needs that don't seem to make women happy. And even if they did, it's just not realistic for a society that needs two incomes to survive.
Becky Mollenkamp: I appreciate you taking a stab at that vision of a world where women's work is valued and what it would take for us to get there. I'm interpreting that your focus is less on how we get there and more on shining a light on what's not working and why all of this matters. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that's really where you're trying to show up. I'm curious, given that you're talking a lot about what's wrong and sadly how things have not gotten substantially better in the last 20-40 years, and in some ways have gotten worse, how do you keep going in the face of all that? What keeps you showing up and doing the work you're doing?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: I do think shining a light on it is important, but I was also being a bit facetious when I said my subheading wasn't "what would it take" because it's such a huge question and requires big solutions. But I don't feel hopeless about it. I really do believe the arc of the universe or whatever bends toward justice and that we have seen changes over time. But we have to be careful not to overstate them because often progress is used to shut down the work still to be done, right?
I think we need serious policy change and government investment in families. The US figured out universal childcare during World War II with the Lanham Act, and they could figure it out again. I think a woman in the White House and more women in politics will make a huge difference. We know that the higher the proportion of women lawmakers, the greater the number of laws enacted to advance gender equality, and that stands for women in both parties in the US. Women are just more likely than men to pursue laws that advance childcare, equal pay, reproductive health care, and domestic violence legislation because they see them as core issues, not "specialty issues."
Where I get the most hope is from the younger generations and our ability to parent them differently. To prepare girls for the world they're walking into so they're clear they're not the problem and will fight for what they deserve. And for boys to make connection, caring, and cooperation as valuable as we do for girls so that when they grow up and enter into relationships, the idea that we both help will be increasingly a no-brainer with every generation. That is precisely why I wrote my book.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love the focus on the next generations and youth. I see my nieces, who are 18 and 20, and it gives me such hope that things are definitely going to change. It makes me wonder, as someone who talks about parenting through a feminist lens, have you noticed any changes in how people parent over generations? Do you think parenting in general is becoming more feminist? Are Gen Xers more feminist in their parenting than their Boomer parents were? Are millennials, who are now parents, more feminist than Gen X parents were? I'm curious if parenting styles and the general approach to parenting are improving across generations.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: Because society has become more feminist and parents are part of that, of course, they've become more feminist too. I think the idea of raising a strong, independent daughter is more pervasive, and more men are saying they became feminists once they had a daughter. The idea that girls don't always have the same opportunities as boys has seeped into their parenting. These are all signs that most parents are more feminist than their parents were.
But sometimes that feminism doesn't go deep enough; it doesn't go beyond "girl power." Girl power is wonderful for building a can-do attitude and self-respect for the female gender, but it doesn't prepare girls for the hidden biases and unfair or unsavory behavior they're going to experience. It doesn't address the hurt and confusion resulting from the poor or biased treatment they encounter just for being a girl.
There's still a gap between what parents want for their daughters and how to prepare them adequately for a sexist world so that girls really know in their hearts that something is wrong with the culture, not with them. And I get it. Like I say in my book, we walk a fine line between preparing girls for the world and instilling fear or making them feel inferior. But there is a way to do it. I offer concrete ways to prepare, not scare, our daughters so that sexism won't impact their sense of self or potential as much as it still does today. So yes, more feminist parenting is happening with every generation, and also, there's more we can do to help our daughters expect and demand equality out in the world.
Becky Mollenkamp: You also mentioned women in the White House and how women policymakers do a better job of advocating for what parents need. So maybe we can wrap up by discussing what's at stake in this upcoming election when it comes to parenting?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: There's a lot at stake for all parents, Republican or Democrat. If Republicans win this election, for instance, there'd likely be a shift away from expanding access to affordable childcare and early childhood education programs, which are often priorities for Democratic administrations. Paid family leave and medical leave policies could be challenged, affecting parents' ability to take time off to care for newborns or sick family members without losing crucial income. There could also be reductions in healthcare access and funding for child health programs like CHIP, which Democrats typically support. We might see anti-poverty initiatives and social welfare programs scaled back. These are all ways to try and push women back into the home, but of course, they make no sense because almost every family needs two incomes to survive.
Finally, I'm thinking about how Republicans often emphasize parental rights and advocate for greater control over their children's education and healthcare decisions, which sounds good in theory but in practice translates to scaring parents into believing the public school agenda is to make all kids gay or gender nonconforming, partly as a way to undermine public education in favor of charter schools and vouchers. That can and will lead to policies that infringe on gay and trans rights. So maybe Republican parents see this as a win, but it's a grave loss for children who will have books banned and their identities foreclosed on. It's certainly a loss for progressive parents who want to loosen the rigid restrictions around gender roles and sexuality for their children.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you so much for participating in this. Where can people find you? What do you want them to know about how to connect with you, where to learn from you, and where to get more if they want to learn more about you? I will link to your Substack, but if you want to share anything else, that would be amazing.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein: You can find me at JoannFinkelstein.com. That's my website. On Instagram at Jo-Ann Finkelstein PhD or on Facebook at Jo-Ann Finkelstein PhD Author. It's been a pleasure answering your questions.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thanks again to Jo-Ann. Her Substack is called The Feminist Parent, linked in the show notes, so go give it a subscription, especially if you are a parent. Thank you again for listening to this series, for being a paid subscriber, and for being an incredible human. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I will be back with another interview for you in your private podcast feed on Monday.