The 404 Media Podcast (Premium Feed)

Hello, and welcome to the 44 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds both online and IRL. 44 4 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. As well as bonus content every single week, subscribers get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. We were just reported one of those, so watch out for that. Gain access to that content at 4 4media.c0.

Usually, the podcast includes my cofounders, Jason Kebler, Emmanuel Myberg, and Joseph Cox. But today, you just have me and a guest. I am delighted to have with us Alexandra Cakesi. She is VP of brand and community at Pornhub. She took that role in August 2023 after working for Pornhub and its parent company for more than a decade, but she's joining us today from Montreal, which is where Pornhub is based.

Instead of going on, like, a long ramble introducing you, I would love to just jump right in and have you tell us how you got into this gig. Like, what's the what's the backstory here? I know that's always, like, the number one question for people in the industry is, how did you get into this?

Yeah. And it's it's funny because I don't know if anyone ever has, like, a satisfying

answer. Yeah.

I don't think so. Right? Yeah. So I actually did a degree in gender and sexuality studies, here in Montreal at the Simone de Beauvoir Institute, which is part of Concordia University. So this whole world was not something new to me, certainly, coming out of school, and it's where I would say that my my genuine interest in sex work as both a feminist cause, you know, in so many ways, but also one of bodily autonomy was really born, I guess, was when I was in school.

I had the pleasure of, you know, learning a lot about it from certainly from an academic standpoint, obviously, but then through a number of different mediums. So I learned a lot about the ways that different laws criminalize sex work around the world, even in some ways how sex work has quite literally influenced the way that certain cities have been designed, especially here in Montreal. There's a long history of how sort of the red light district evolved into today's contemporary Chinatown, sort of right around the port. A number of my instructors were sex workers, so it was really sort of instilled in me, you know, during my studies, and it was something that I was and continue to be very, very interested in. Aylo, which was, you know, when I joined the company back in 2013, was then ManWayne, then became MindGeek.

Wow. It was ManWin at the time. That's like Yeah. It was. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think I still have some, like, very ancient ManWin merch somewhere.

Sick. Yeah. It's my

little my little nest egg for retirement.

Yeah. Be gay.

No. But it's actually, like, a a pretty popular employer here in Montreal, especially, you know, for English speakers, certainly. We're a bilingual company or, you know, we're an international company, I shouldn't even say that, where we conduct business in many different languages. It was a place that one of my best friends was working at right when I got out of school. She referred me for a job.

I started here doing community service, or community management rather, I should say, for one of our smaller brands that's called Tube 8. So I was doing their social media, and I was doing support for them as well. And then that kind of just grew into a larger role on the marketing team, doing copywriting, stuff like that. I was working on our famous insights blog, which I know we're gonna talk about a little bit later. The interview just came out.

Yeah. And I really just matured into the role that I have now, which I love. I think it really allows me to work on all of the parts of the business and in all the parts of the industry that I'm most interested in, primarily that involves engaging directly with the community, so I'm very present at events. I'm continuously in dialogue with creators, and I really do think that that is one of the things that sets sort of Cornhub apart from a lot of the other creator sites out there is that this is something that we're you know, we really try and visibly make part of our identity and of our brand as a platform that really seeks you know, we want the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to what creators have to say about us and what they think about us. Like, we think that information is so valuable and so important, especially the criticism.

You know, I'm gonna I'm just kinda gearing up to go to the 2 big shows in January. So there's Xbiz in LA and then ABN in Vegas, both of which my focus is going to be really in sort of getting FaceTime in with creators there. So that's kind of a twofold thing. On the one hand, it's to, you know, do a lot of information sharing. There have been a number of different updates that we've rolled out on Pornhub over the course of the last year.

There's the ever evolving situation with age verification law. So it's a lot of information sharing with creators, but then also getting feedback. We also actually have a couple of people on our team who like, that's what they do. They they engage in sort of, I guess, like, what the mainstream world would call sort of, you know, focus groups with creators regularly. So these are things that we do where we actively seek out models from our community.

We pay them for their time and survey them on different things, you know, to see what we're doing right and then not so right. And then depending on where appropriate, we feed that information, you know, either back to the compliance team, to the product team, whatever, so that we can continuously optimize the process for our folks.

Nice. Yeah. So a lot to do. So much to do every day. Yeah.

I I was just reading a Wired article that came out, I think, last week, and it was called the sticky dilemmas of Pornhub's next chapter. Great headline. I know. It's like I was like, damn, I can't even I can't talk. I've had some headlines in my day that are, cringe, but, that was a good one.

And you're quoted you mentioned in that story, part

of the, part of

the job for you is taking flack, is what you said, from, performers and people who use the site to make a living. So I'm curious what they're coming to you with lately. Like, what are the big concerns for folks who are in the industry right now?

Yeah. So I guess, like, the the primary one is it's really a double edged sword. Right? So it's it's our compliance protocol. One of the big misconceptions, I think, that people have is that it's so easy to just get content up on Pornhub.

Right? Like, it's actually quite a complicated process by design, you know, before. And I know that you've spoken to my colleague, Sal, about this in the past, so I won't get into the the whole, you know, nuts and bolts of it. But, essentially, before you're even able to upload content to the site, you have to undergo a rigorous verification process, you know, to confirm identity. And then after that, your content undergoes its own moderation process.

Right? So it's it's not just like a straightforward linear thing. It has to get scanned against a number of different databases, which is looking for anything from, you know, the metadata containing a banned word from our banned word list or, you know, all the way to known illegal content, so scanning against different databases that contain sort of fingerprints of known illegal content of all types. So on the user end, as far as the model is concerned, what that looks like today is that when you're uploading content to the site, you also need to upload documentation proving consent of all participants as well as their IDs. So that takes a while.

Right? Like, these are each each content creator is really the way that we look at them, it's like a small business, and folks have to spend, you know, a good amount of time uploading content and uploading, you know, the metadata to make sure that the content is finding the right audience, but then there's also the whole sort of checklist when it comes to the consent side of it. And, you know, sometimes, because we do rely on third parties, for parts of that, so for the verification part, like, if you don't have, like, I don't know, all of your software up to date, your cookies are, you know, bogged up or whatever. There can be, like, that kind of friction that can be really frustrating for people, because then that obviously also increase delays to when their content is going live, and they're counting on their content going live for that content to earn money. So it's a lot of those kinds of conversations, and, certainly, you know, this is not unique to us.

This is something that's happening sort of industry wide across the creator space, not just limited to adults. And I think, ultimately, like, it's it's part of something that's overall quite positive. It's contributing to a safer Internet, but then at the same time, you know, just from the user standpoint, we do understand that, you know, it's not super easy. And this is, you know, especially for creators that have been in the business for a long time, like people that have, you know, been there since the age of, like, VHS, DVD to then Internet. Like, it's so many like, it's a lot of change all the time, so I understand how that can be frustrating.

But, you know, the good news is that we do have a robust team of folks that are available to creators. Like, that's another thing that we really pride ourselves on is that you're not gonna get some, like, you know, chatbot AI generated support thing where you have to, like, figure out how to hack it so that you can actually get access to a human.

God. Yeah.

Like, I can't tell you, you know, like, you've dealt with that before. Like, it's, like, impossible to speak to, like, a competent human being sometimes, like, when you just have, like, the simplest thing that you wanna solve either with, like, you know, your Internet bill or whatever. So we really try and remove that friction from the experience for our creators and have people available to help them with this kind of stuff. We also have a number of different resources available on the blog from everything from the more technical aspects of it to, you know, how to succeed on the site, how to make the most money possible. So we really try and make ourselves available on that front as well.

Yeah. Like you said, everything is changing so quickly from the creator's point of view and also from, like, consumer's point of view. Things are changing too, which I'm definitely excited to get into that with you in a little bit. But just to back up a tiny bit. So, like, your day to day sounds wild and very busy.

But when you first started this job, something that I thought was really interesting and you talked about this a little bit in the the terms of service podcast, which is fantastic. I'm a fan.

Thank you.

But, yeah, you you talked about the the decision to go public, like, with your name, putting yourself out there as, like, this is, like, who's because for a long time, Pornhub was like I mean, it was always, like, the shady company that's, like, running porn. It's like all these kind of, like, conceptions about it as, like Mhmm. Something that's the opposite of transparent. It's very much like opaque leadership. And I thought that was interesting to kind of to say, you know, I'm gonna say this is me.

This is my real name. And I would love for you to kind of explain a little bit what that has been like. Because immediately after you took that role, there are quite a few, like, kind of interesting tabloid angles taken that were like, you know, were like Pornhub remotes this, like, female executive. They're bringing on a woman. It's like, you know, like, she's pretty qualified.

Like, they're not just like, here's a here's a chick. Like, let's put her in front of the the public. But what was that like for you? Because that's such a shift from how you were working to step into that role in that way.

Yeah. That was so annoying because, like you said, I've been here, like, since the dawn of time. Yeah. So if anything, it's like I don't know. I I would certainly understand that reaction.

Like you said, if they had just kind of plucked someone out of the ether and been like, okay. We're gonna, you know, do some window dressing here, and, you know, that'll be that. But I've really been, like, living and breathing this brand and this industry for over a decade now, like, in gen in June, I'll be celebrating 12 years with the company. So I'm really happy to be here, and, honestly, it, you know, it was a conversation for sure, where I had to tell my folks. Like, they obviously have known since day 1 that I work here, but it's a different thing for sure to be sort of public facing.

But I think, you know, if we're talking about sort of the main hindrance, I think, to the adult industry today is stigma. Right? And that is something that we see at every level. So when we talk about things like banking, like sex workers, in many cases, you know, not having access to mortgages. Even though they might have 1,000,000 of dollars in the bank, they can't get a mortgage or they can't buy a house, you know, and as as part of a certain coop because the members of that coop don't want, you know, someone like that to be part of their community in that way.

You know, the whole genesis of the podcast that I have terms of services from the fact that we got booted from Instagram, so, like, erasure on those types of spaces. And so that was one of the major things really that informed my decision was that, you know, if we wanna start seeing things getting better, it can't just be sex workers that are advocating for themselves. Like, we also need people that are part of the industry that are, you know, it's sex work is what pays my rent. It's not me doing it. It's our community.

You know, so I think that's part of the responsibility that we have as part of of of this community. Like, I really do my see myself as part of the sex work in the adult industry community, you know, to be out there and to be vocal and to take up that space, not instead of, I think, you know, in concert with sex workers themselves and advancing those causes. Because if we just kind of keep it in the shadows or we're relying on the labor of the people that are primarily impacted by a lot of these struggles, by a lot of these issues, that's not fair either, and we're certainly not gonna get anywhere.

Yeah. Have you had to deal with, like, any harassment or people kinda just, like, tracking you down? I know that people in the industry often that's why they stay, you know, private with their name and, you know, with their lives. So

Yeah. Exactly. That was I mean and that was, you know, part of the the motivation certainly with previous leadership, which I can understand. But then what we saw was that, you know, when we're not visible, when we're not accessible, then other voices or other theories or other people are very happy to occupy that space and tell stories that we don't necessarily want told or stories that are not necessarily true about us as a company or about the industry in general, which can have its own set of harms, for sure. Yeah.

I get some interesting DMs. Absolutely. You know, I try and avoid reading the comments as much as as possible, you know, when I go on other podcasts or whatever else, articles about me. But, honestly, I really, really love my job. I feel really privileged to have the job that I do.

There are many more pluses to cons, I would say, for sure.

Yeah. Taking on, like, a new job, it's already, like, stressful. It's like, oh, let me, like, do a personal news post or, like, put it on LinkedIn or whatever. And it's, like, just such a different ballgame when you're, like, I'm gonna be, like, the marketing face of this, very famous born company. Yeah.

I mean, I definitely I am glad that you guys are going the transparency route and being, like, hey. We're people. And I I know that other leadership has been doing that too

Yeah.

Since, I guess, last year ish or maybe a little bit longer ago.

Yeah. We were acquired in, it was March of last year. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that was one of the main sort of priorities that they had as new owners was that they really wanted to put an emphasis on transparency and accessibility so that there would not be any, you know, in an article anymore. You're not gonna see, like, Pornhub could not be reached a comment or Ayla could not be reached a comment.

The only way that I think that could happen today is, like, and this is so annoying, just because sometimes we do use email addresses that have, you know, like, Pornhub Press or whatever, something

like that.

And then it's, like, it just gets stuck in people's spam. Yeah. That's real. Yeah. And it's so annoying.

Even sometimes, you know, just communicating, like, even if it's with my my email address, just like the fact that it says, like, Pornhub, and it's like, obviously, yes, it will say that, but gets stuck in people's spam. So yes. Yeah. That's very irritating.

Yeah. I've I've had to get creative sending emails before. It's like if you're emailing, like, like, a professor at, like, a university for comment about something, and it's like, I know that this is never gonna get through their, like, firewall for the emails. Like, what can I like, how many words can I come up with for porn? I'm using the word adult all the time.

Mhmm. Just like, please don't get stuck, and it still does all the time. Yeah. So it's been a crazy year, to say the least. So, yeah, let's get into the annual year in review.

So this is, like, a big you guys have been doing the year in review forever.

Yeah. Well over 10 years at this point.

Yeah. And, like, it's always a ride. I find it super interesting and a little bit strange. And, like, my frustration was like, oh, yikes. When I saw the, the the demure and the Tradewife stuff come up, I was like, oh my god.

Like, so to give people a little bit of context, this year, the trending topics like, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not, like, the most popular stuff on Pornhub. This is, like, what's seen the most growth?

Yeah. Exactly.

So the word demure, searches for demure, rose a 133%. Simple sex grew 55%. Authentic sex was 43%. What is simple sex, I wonder?

I I know. I was like, what's the opposite to, like, complicated or like sex?

Yeah. Yeah. The things people search. Trad wife was up 72%. Amateur wife, 21%.

Amateur Yep. Born wife or amateur at being a wife, we're not sure. Traditional wife. Traditional wife, 34% increase, and then there was a bunch of different Mormon sex terms, which which you guys attributed to the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, the show. Right?

It's a show. I have not seen it.

Me neither. I tried and it, you know, I I am a reality TV junkie, and for whatever reason, like, that one just, like, didn't hit for me.

It didn't click for me either, but it clicked for a lot of people who found a new fetish in Mormonism. Very interesting. So my first thought about all of this was, oh, god. Like, we just had a year of, like, talk like, the discourse has been, like, kids are more puritanical now. Like, gen z doesn't wanna see sex in movies.

And then, of course, in the states, at least, like, this rise in, like, mainstream conservatism and Mhmm. These kind of very, honestly, concerning to me trends happening in society. And then the first thing that people are searching for on Pornhub is stuff that reflects that. So I'm curious what you made of that. Like, what was kinda your your reaction to this?

I mean, I think, like, what's interesting about the year interviewer, even searches activity on the site in general, is that, like you said, it is, you know, certainly a mirror of what's kind of going on in society in general. Right? Because one of the things, you know, that makes, I think, the insights so valuable and so interesting to look at is that we do have so much traffic. Right? We're have we're hovering somewhere around the ballpark of, like, a 130,000,000 daily visitors.

So when you see those fluctuations in, you know, traffic or these spikes and searches, like, it it really is indicative of, like, real trends or real change in in society. So, you know, certainly, Tradewipes, for instance, like, that was huge this year with, like, the big you know, the pieces about Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith and whatever else. It's it's only normal to me that it would be on Pornhub as well that people wanna see, you know, is there content that sort of depict something like this much in the same way that, you know, when a a new Batman movie comes out, we see searches go up for those types of characters for Batman and Harley Quinn and whatever else. So it's it never really, like, surprises me that we're seeing what's happening or what's popular in, like, general sort of, like, Zeitgeist discourse be reflected there too.

Yeah. I talked to a few people who make make content and also people who study it, and I think the reaction that most people had who I talked to were like, yeah. Of course. Like, it was the same kind of thing. It's like, oh, yeah.

Like, yeah. Of course, they're they're searching for these things because it is a fetish already. It's like it's been a fetish since the, like, the fifties or something. It's not it was never, like, it was never really real. So, of course, people are carrying that over into their sex lives and, like, trying to fantasize about, you know, like, stay at home moms making pie and looking hot.

It's like yeah. Naturally. And, also, I think and this kinda goes back to the Instagram thing. It's like those platforms are so safe for work, you know, like, quote, unquote, safe for work. Not safe not for not our work.

But safe for somebody's work, and they will shut you down if you do anything near showing too much side boob. Like, it's just it's a crazy strict algorithm that they're running. So the content creators who make that stuff, I think, often kinda know that it's a sexual fantasy as well. It's not just a not just a an economic or social fantasy. It's like a a sexual thing too.

For sure.

So I think that's really interesting that people have that creators have picked up on that and said, let me make some more more of this type of content because people like it.

I mean, we also give them that information. Right? Like, monthly, we send like, that information is accessible to our creators. They don't just have to wait for the year end review. We make a point of being like, you know, this is what's doing really well on the site.

You know, do with that what you will, and then people, you know, roll with it, and then we see that they see success. So yeah.

That's so interesting that they can see that and they can come back to it too. Sure. That's super useful.

But like you said, I mean, they also definitely don't need to wait, you know, for us to tell them. Like, content creators, especially the ones that are very successful, are very, very smart. And, like, they know that more than anyone, I would say that, like, yeah. If if something is happening in pop culture, like, I just saw that Joanna Angel, you know, put out a, Luigi Mangione inspired,

piece. That's so good. Yeah. Stop. Oh my god.

I love her.

Yeah. She's great. I need to talk to

her immediately about that. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, so creative, because and it's just like yeah. Obviously, that's been, like, dominating the news cycle for, like, the past 2 weeks now. Like, of course Yeah. Someone is gonna yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything outside of, like, the the Pornhub, like, the insights ecosystem that you see happening in the culture or the conversations that are going on around sex that are, kinda getting your eye lately? Like, what's kind of coming up for you?

Yeah. There was actually so when I was just in New York a couple of days ago meeting with a couple of writers, and this really interesting parallel emerged, and this this came up in a couple of different conversations where a lot of writers these days are or or independent creators are getting on Substack, right, which I think is so great and I think is, you know, such a great way of of supporting people that we've seen it on with Patreon. And, you know, I support a number of different people on Substack, and I love it because it just allows me to see, like, not only this kind of, like, unfiltered version of these of these writers, but also being able to consume more of their content, and then they're barely paid for it. And we all realized, like, you know, Substack is kind of only fans for for journalists in many ways. Yeah.

And it was, like, just, like, such an interesting thing, and this came up really, like, kind of organically because I feel like that was a conversation that a lot of creators in the adult space were having a couple of years ago. Like, oh, are you on OnlyFans yet? Da da da. And, oh, I don't know. Like, see what it is.

And I think, like, that's the conversation that's really happening right now with alternative media. So it's, again, like, these kind of, like, trendsetting and universal sort of things that are happening across economies and across, you know, kind of creator subsets, if you will. It's just so fascinating.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just that's, like, it's yet another example of, like, sex workers doing it first, when it comes to, like like, seeing what's coming down the line as far as, like, economic forces and also, just the way that they make business needs to be structured. Like, I think probably I'm gonna say, like, 5 or 10 years ago. It might be not even 10 years ago, but, like, like, everyone was like, oh, like, these, like, traditional like, the the studio system is broken.

The the traditional way that distribution works is breaking because of the Internet. It's no longer like you go to the the, like, VHS store and pick up a a video or not even, like, a DVD from the store. Like, people just don't go anywhere anymore. And also that need to, like, get a hold of your own content, and to to take control of your own work and your own output instead of just making it for a check for someone else. Mhmm.

Yeah. Sex workers did that first, of course. So it makes a lot of sense now that we're we're pushing that way. I mean, we, like, 4 4 exists for that reason. It's like we're Yeah.

Totally. Like, we're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A result of that kind of those pressures too.

It's like we need to own our own stuff Mhmm. Because our industry is also collapsing.

Well, that yeah. Like, that was a conversation I was having with folks where it's just like you know, especially when you're working in legacy media, right, where it's just like, yes, it's great to have one of these big publication names on your website, but, like, that's not gonna buy you groceries.

Right.

Because a lot of these jobs, unfortunately, don't pay very well, and I don't think that, like, legacy media is useless or has no place anymore. Of course, that's not the case, much in the same way that the studio system certainly still has its place and certainly has its value. But it's these kind of alternative channels that offer, you know, much needed different sources of income for the creator, but then also a great experience for the audience member. Right? Because they're also able to engage and access different sort of facets of the creator and different types of content and in more most cases, more of it, which is kinda great for everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not just like this is what this producer thinks is hot. Yeah. It's Yeah.

Or not even that they think it's hot that, like, they know will sell. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know? Or that it's gonna be, like, the bombshell on the poster.

It can be lots of different, like, lots of different body types, lots of different types of content, lots of different kinks out there.

Yeah.

People find all of it sexy. You're gonna find an audience if you put it out there. And that kinda that goes back to, like, the trad stuff. Stuff. It's like, someone I talked to, Eric Sprinkle, who wrote a book about masturbation.

Yeah. He was like, well, yeah. It's like, you see this content, you see this content creator, and you're like, oh, I wonder if she has feet pics for sale Mhmm. Somewhere, and you go find her somewhere else. You go to Exactly.

And you look for her on there. People have gotten used to kind of following that that cycle.

Yeah. And that's actually that's so interesting because that's exactly sort of what I explained to folks as the benefit of being on Pornhub. Right? Because there's still a lot of people that don't understand that, yes. Like, Pornhub is a free site to access for the user, and so there's a misunderstanding, I think, that it can be quite lucrative for the creator because it's a free site to access.

So we do pay, you know, a portion of the the rev share on the ads to the creators, but then also we allow them to link out to their other sites, which is something that's, I think, unique to us. If I'm not mistaken, we're the only platform of our type that not only allows it, but also encourages it. So I kinda make the analogy to Spotify to help people understand it where, you know, I love every Monday, like, it just came out my little Discover Weekly, playlist that gets generated because you know, I listen to it, when I'm in the car, and I have discovered so many different artists that I would never have probably encountered organically or would have taken me much longer because I make a point of, you know, engaging with it. When I when I hear a song on that playlist that I like, I put the little, like, thumbs up or the heart thing, whatever it is, so that my algorithm knows me and knows what to recommend. So, obviously, for us, I'm very proud to say that we do pay by stream proportionally better than Spotify does.

Oh, my god. For for view.

But, you know, that said, it Spotify is a not the only one, but a revenue stream for creators, so is Pornhub for our subset of creators. But the benefit is that, you know, kind of similar to the way that I discover a new artist in my Discover Weekly playlist, what that translates to is I'm gonna go see them play a show. I'm gonna go buy their merch. I'm able to find these other ways of supporting those creators because I found them there. So same with Pornhub.

We're such a great discovery platform. We have, you know, again, so much traffic, so many people visiting us that we're able to really, you know, help people find their different audiences, right, in that way. And so when someone discovers you on Pornhub, they can then go, you know, to your profile on the site and find your OnlyFans. They can find your Amazon wish list. They can find your personal website, like, wherever it is that you wanna direct those other folks to so they can support you in those ways.

Yeah. I mean, I guess that's kind of how I've I've thought about Pornhub too. It's like it's basically like free advertising at worst. And if you do really well in Pornhub and you get, you know, ranked higher and higher in the algorithm or in the, like, in the trending stuff, then people will find you more easily, and then you'll have more OnlyFans followers or something. I don't know.

Like, it just seems like a part of a funnel now than just, like, the one stop situation. And people do, like I don't know if people I don't know if listeners are frequenters of Pornhub or not, but I always like to explain things to people as if they're not just in case. Yeah. Because a lot of people, I don't know, aren't, I guess. But a lot of performers will put up, like, clips or, like, it'll be a short piece of a trailer.

You know? It's like it's not the whole Exactly. The whole scene even, in a lot of the cases or certainly not the whole film if they're doing, like, a long thing. It'll just be, like, a a highlight reel or, like, a little short little clip. So we don't have a ton of time left, and I wanna devote plenty of time to age verification because that's something that I've been covering quite a bit.

And I know that's something that Pornhub has been really vocal about in the last year Mhmm. And really getting into this fight. So I'm gonna I I'm gonna focus on US Asia application laws just because that's Yeah. That's probably our audience, and also it's just my expertise. I when I did the, I recently did a podcast with CBC, and we got to the Asia application legislation stuff, in this podcast about Pornhub.

And, like, Canadian media was calling me to ask me about, like, Canadian legislation, and I was like, I was like, let me read really fast. Like but it follows a lot of the same beats, so it's relevant.

Yeah. I mean, that's that's the thing is that, like, we're gonna have the conversation today in an American context, but, really, like, the laws as they're designed at an international level are all very, very similar.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is also it's telling and interesting. So just to kinda set it up for people, what we're talking about when we're talking about age verification laws, what we need is, like, this very particular kind of legislation that, usually, like you said, follows this kind of template almost. This pattern usually requires sites with, like, quote, more than 1 third adult content or, like, it's, like, 33% or something adult content.

So that would be Pornhub, but also probably a lot of other sites that aren't talking about this, like Twitter. Google? But Google. Yeah. Google.

A lot of other places probably, but the focus is on porn sites, from these legislators. So they're forcing sites to force users to upload driver's license, passport, other kind of government issued IDs in order to access the site. And And the interesting thing is this is happening state by state in the US right now. So one state will have a law like this in place where that requires you to upload your driver's license to a porn site and the others you go across the street to the next state and it doesn't. Or even if you're in one state and your IP address is the other one.

Yeah. That happens. Yes. We get

so many angry people writing into support about that.

Yeah. It's like, it's not working out, but nevertheless, there are 14 states at this point, I think, with age verification laws.

Yeah. With a handful more coming into effect in just 2 weeks, including Florida.

Yeah. So it's gonna be most most states soon, I feel, like, within the next few years, unless something happens and these things get rolled back. So Pornhub has blocked access to users in several of the states that are that have those laws in place already

Yep.

As a way to comply with the law, which says you must do this. Pornhub's just saying we're out. Yeah. So how many now has Pornhub actually blocked access?

I think you're right that it's, there's 14 in total, but Louisiana is the exception because there is a law in effect there, and we did make the decision to go ahead with the state endorsed method there. That was the first one to go into effect almost 2 years ago now. Mhmm.

Okay. Yeah. It's like the it's like the state has a has a real ID kinda thing.

Yeah. So in Louisiana, it's called LA Wallet, and Yeah. That was the first one to go into effect. So we decided, okay. We'll see how this goes.

We're gonna comply. I mean, we always comply, but like you said, for the majority, the way that we choose to comply is by just simply shutting off service. And the real issue, I think, with the way that these laws are set up or like you said, is that it's happening at the site level. Right? So that means anytime you go to any individual different adult site or any site that has this, threshold that's been established, the 33% threshold, it's meant to prompt this process by which you have to verify your age using any number of methods where you have to prove your ID or prove your age rather using government ID.

And in Louisiana, what we're consistently seeing is that when people are met with this, and this is, again, this is with LA Wallet. It's a product that had a very or continues to have a very wide adoption rate as is because people are using it in their everyday lives, you know, to buy beer at the store, to get into a nightclub, whatever else. We're still seeing upwards of an 80% bounce rate. So that means that it should be this really simple thing. You already have this on your phone.

You already trust it, and people are just like, nope. And I understand why. Right? Because it goes completely against human behavior. What we're taught or what we're told continuously to do is if someone is asking you for your personal information on the Internet, you're not supposed to just give it away.

You're supposed to be very careful about that. You're supposed to use a lot of scrutiny when it comes to to who and where you're giving this kind of sensitive information rightfully so. But then all of a sudden, when it comes to a porn site, you're supposed to do it. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And, you know, we've seen firsthand with with what happened with Ashley Madison just a couple of years ago, like, how devastating really the consequences of a data breach could be.

We're talking about really, like, life ruining stuff. Like, people legitimately you know, they had marriages fall apart. They, in some cases, commit suicide.

It's like a safety issue for a while.

It's it's really devastating, and especially, like, you know, when we're considering certain states where already, you know, it's it's not so great out there if you're part of certain minority groups, like if you are queer, if you are trans, or you are, you know, someone who is interested sexually in trans folks. And then you're gonna have, potentially, you know, records of your search activity looking for that stuff in that state. Like, that's not great and and and poses, you know, considerable privacy and safety risks, understandably so. So in addition to that, like, when we think if we're just gonna dial it back a little bit to that 80% figure in Louisiana, like, we know that that, you know, considerable group of people did not just decide, okay. I'm not gonna watch porn ever again.

They're gonna go to other sites where they don't encounter that threshold, we'll say. Because the other issue here is with the way that these laws are designed, certainly at the state level, you can imagine that enforcement is, if not very difficult, I would say impossible. There's 100 of 1,000, if not millions, of adult sites that exist out there. I don't know how any government of any size is gonna be properly equipped to really go after and make sure that every single one of them is, you know, outfitted correctly with the proper age verification mechanisms. Us, on on our side, we're always gonna be compliant with the law, whether that looks like, you know, in in the majority of cases just pulling out and and withdrawing service.

But that's that's not what we're seeing for the vast majority of, you know, the competition or just other adult sites out there. The other thing that I think really does bear worth talking about is that, you know, for us, with Pornhub, like, we do have a really extensive moderation system. We do have a really robust trust and safety protocol. Like, these are things that we take really seriously that we've invested in considerably so people can trust that the content on our site is safe and has been vetted, and that the people that are on our site are there because they've chosen to. We have the consent paperwork and the IDs to prove that.

That's not the case for a lot of other sites out there. So what you're doing effectively is encouraging people to go to those other sites where the content is not safe, where the content hasn't been verified, hasn't been moderated, or if it has been, it's it's certainly not to the same standards that we have. So I really fail to see or to understand how this is contributing to a safer Internet.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just it's interesting that when it comes up that, like, Pornhub has blocked another site or whatever it is. The and I've seen, you know, like, state officials say this too. I get their, like, press releases about, like, Pornhub and, like, their fight against porn or whatever.

But it'll be like Pornhub runs away from this law, or, like, they or it's it's like they're trying to make it sound like it's admitting that it's so bad that you can't access it in Texas, you know, and it's like and, you know, it's it'll be like, you know, Ken Paxton will be like good riddance or whatever. Mhmm. It's very telling. It's telling. It's interesting the way that both sides have had to kind of like it's like they're talking past each other or telling a different story, but, like, I'm not hearing really solutions from the legislators who are passing these laws who are saying, like, this is actually like, here's a real solution that's not forcing people to give their ID to a website.

Whereas the adult industry and Pornhub also lately has been saying, look, here's the actually, like, what is better. So if not this, which I think people a lot of people hear it for the person like, oh, yeah. Of course. Age verification. That's great.

If not this, what should we do to not let kids access, like, mature content, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. If you wanna walk folks through like that.

I'd be happy to. And, I mean, I think it's it's it's important also to note that it's not just us. Like, it's also in the child protection space. ICMEC, which is the International Center For Missing and Exploited Children, recently published a model bill that is called the Digital Age Assurance Act, so the DAAA, which is something that we really stand behind and we think really does stand to, if adopted, solve this problem. So the problem being children accessing age inappropriate content, and I and I was careful there not to say pornography, because this really does stand to impact or to benefit, I should say, a number of different industries because we're certainly not alone in the adult industry when it comes to, you know, providing content, providing entertainment that not everybody should be consuming.

Right? So that can also involve gaming, that can involve cannabis, tobacco, alcohol, a number of other different industries could benefit from this as well. Basically, what this is all about or the bottom line is sort of that age verification is a really good thing. It just has to be done correctly. And the thing is that the way that we're, you know, what we've just been talking about for the last couple of minutes is that right now, we're seeing that it's not being done correctly.

Like, it's not being done in an effective way. That's for sure. I think that, you know, right now, it's it's a really tempting and really easy pathway for lawmakers to sort of just do this copy paste of you know, because these bills pretty much with the exception of a couple of, you know, not so noteworthy tweaks are essentially carbon copies of each other. Right? Like, they're all kind of written with very similar language, with very similar, if not identical, kind of recommendations for, implementation.

There's there's no one really breaking the box when it comes to age verification law. So this the the d triple a, the Digital Age Assurance Act, really does change the way that we're having this conversation. So it proposes that age verification happened once on the device, part of the operating system of the device. So if you're I know it's it's not so popular anymore, but if you're an Apple user, which I am, it would, I was actually yeah. That was one of the things that really shocked me.

I know we're we're talking about age verification, but just to jump back to your interview, the market share of Apple, wow, really tanked this year.

I'm an Android, girly, always have been, so Yeah. There you go. I Apple

is great for me because it is designed for children, where it's like, here's the photo of the thing you wanna use. Very easy. Yep. So great for for me. But, basically, it would be in your settings where you have, you know, like, for instance, I have, like my credit cards are linked to my phone.

My biometric information is linked to my phone. You know, for better or for worse, I do trust my device with that sensitive information. My phone will tell me when I'm getting my next period. Like, these are all things that I have willingly put into my device, and so, essentially, you would age verify once. That would be part of your user settings in the OS.

So you would essentially show your ID one time. It would not be kept as part of the record or whatever. It wouldn't be staying on there permanently. It would come on as just kind of like a pass fail, and then that way your device kind of acts as this key to unlock all of these different platforms. So not only is it safer, it's a lot more effective, and it provides a much better user experience too.

Right? Where quite simply, the idea would be that when you buy a new device or even this could be rolled out, for people with existing devices, like, if you already have your phone, you already have your computer, like the majority of folks, it would just be rolled out as part of an OS update, right, where by default, it's everything is locked down. So you would not be able to access any porn site. You would not be able to access any gambling or gaming site until you do the verification. And then from there on, and it's a pass fail thing.

A kid would not be able to complete the exercise because they would not be able to prove to their device that they're of age. And then so those sites would become, you know, sort of permanently inaccessible to them until they turn legal age, and then able to go through the process, yeah, when they turn 18.

And this proposal was saying this should be, like, law. Like, you should have to do this if you're gonna give a kid a phone.

It's basically it's it's it's an alternative to you know, because I think where we're at right now is that age verification law is, you know, it's here to stay. It's it's not going anywhere. And, again, like, I think the concept and this is something that we really do believe, at Aylo and at Pornhub that, like, age verification, yes. Like, it's an overdue We're overdue for it. Like, there's there's so many different things that are finally happening, I think, that are contributing to making the Internet a safer space for everybody.

Like, we've seen a lot of not so great things, you know, happen over the course of the year that have caused real harm and real damage to folks. And I think that, you know, implementing correctly done age verification can be you know, it's a relief to parents. It's going to make it safer for kids, and, you know, it's a it's a viable solution. So if we're having the conversation, if we're gonna do this, then I think we should do it right, and this, I think, is the way to go.

Yeah. And it's interesting because, like, the device level stuff is available to, like, parents now. Like, you could do that on your kid's phone today, and it would keep them off of adult sites in general if you're that if you're that worried about it. I mean, you could, like if you're gonna give a child a phone, like, maybe you should set up the parental controls. I don't know.

Like, that seems pretty easy.

It does. And, like, I think, you know, that's also part of the problem is that those conversations are are like, that part of the narrative, I think, is is missing. Right? I was so happy to see, actually, just a couple of days ago in The New York Times, there was, like, a great article. It was short.

It was to the point, but it was not scary. It was like, look, like, you do need to talk to your kids about porn. Like, kind of part of, like, the general sort of media literacy standpoint where it's it's and it's, again, it's not just limited to adult. Like, there's a lot online that, you know, kids are not ready to see that they could potentially stumble upon or have sent to them. And I was really happy to see, you know, this, like, major news outlet provide, you know, talking points for parents to empower to empower parents and to, you know, show them, like, there are conversations that you have to have with your kid that are not gonna be fun that might be a little bit intimidating, but, like, here's how you can do it.

Yeah. And I mean, the the state of, like, sex education is already so trash, at least in the states. I don't know. Did you get any, like, comprehensive sex education when you were a kid, or how was it in Montreal?

Well, I went to a private Catholic girls' school.

Oh, hey. So did I. It wasn't Catholic, but it was Christian.

Yeah. So, we had a little bit of it, but, like, you know, going back to elementary school, like, I have like, this is, like, seared in my memory. Like, I remember my teacher saying that, like, you will know that you're pregnant if, like, you have your period, but then the next day it stops.

And I was just like wrong.

Yeah. And this is, like, a 60 something year old woman, like, telling us, like, innocent, you know, at that age, or what, like, 11, 12.

Yeah.

And, like, I remember, like, having a conversation with my mom about it, and she was like, no.

Yeah. It's like, that'd be sad.

Yeah. Like that. Yeah. So that's the other thing too, is that, like, you know, I can understand, like, when you're hoping and trusting that, like, there's, you know, different educators in a child's life that are hopefully imparting correct information, and

yeah. There's just not. I mean, yeah, I think now in the States, it's like if you talk about consent or gender or any of these topics or sexuality in school, you are risking your job. Yeah. And parents aren't doing it either.

And I like, I was definitely told, like, don't if you have sexual, get STD and go to hell. It's like, cool. That's useful information and definitely setting me up for, like, a healthy relationship with it in the future. But, yeah, you guys talk about this, I think, in the in the podcast Mhmm. A while back too.

But, like, the idea of, like, the bordering of the Internet is getting more and more intense. Like, these borders are very literal now where, like like, we talked about, like, in Louisiana, you have to do it, but in, like, the next date over, you don't. And, like, it's just all feels very much like it's closing in, but at the same time, there's just not that kind of education happening anywhere. So, of course, kids are turning to, like, porn because they need some they're curious. They need someone to tell them what's going on here, but the adults who are responsible for it are failing.

And to put it all on age verification via identity and these these laws is I don't know. It all feels like a confluence of, like, surveillance

Yeah.

And repression and regression that, is a trend that I'm definitely concerned about, to say the least. Same. Is there anything that you're, like, watching out for in the next year? Like, I know things are pretty, I don't know, fucked here in the States. So, like, are you concerned about any of this, like, project 2025 stuff?

Like, what's kinda on your radar, I guess? I know right now we're all kind of, like, in a wait and see situation. But

Yeah. I think that's very much the same. Like, I'm I'm trying not to be doom and gloom about it at all. I think that, you know, one of the things that I do love most about being part of this community is it's a tremendously resilient community. It's a lot of creative people that continuously find, you know, solutions to the various challenges and different bullshit, quite frankly, that gets thrown at us.

So I'm really excited to hit the road at the beginning of next year and and see everyone at AVN and see everyone at Xbiz and, you know, just charge ahead. Like, there's a lot of really exciting stuff coming up. We have the Pornhub Awards that'll be happening in a couple of months. We have some really exciting collaborations coming out in the fashion space. We're also, making Afray into, the beauty industry next year.

So more more to come. But, yeah, I I'm feeling really, really good about next year, actually.

Amazing. I could definitely see, like, a, like, a waterproof mascara porn host sponsorship or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a lot of ways you could go with that. That's not my job, though. Thank god. I would be so bad at that. But, yeah, I'm excited to see what you guys do in the future.

Thanks. I think it's it's been it's been an interesting couple years for you, obviously, but the future is looking, I don't know, a little bit chaotic. So thank you so much for walking us through what you're seeing. Yeah. My pleasure.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Alex. Is there anything you wanna plug before we hit the road here?

No. I think we covered it all. Thank you.

Yeah. Awesome. Okay.

Oh, terms of service podcast. Duh. I should have

Oh, yeah. The podcast is yeah. Yeah. The podcast is really interesting, and you have, like, a a huge variety of guests on it. Every week is really interesting.

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