The 404 Media Podcast (Premium Feed)

Joseph: 00:04

Hello, and welcome to the four zero four Media Podcast where we bring you unparalleled access in the worlds both online and IRL. Four zero four Media is a journal ist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404media.co. As well as bonus content every single week, subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content at 404media.co.

Joseph: 00:29

I'm your host, Joseph. And with me are all of the four zero four media cofounders. The first being Sam Cole

Sam: 00:35

Hey.

Joseph: 00:36

Emmanuel Mayberg

Emanuel: 00:38

Hello.

Joseph: 00:39

And Jason Kebler.

Jason: 00:41

Hello. Hello. I'm traveling this week, so I'm on a different mic. So if I sound different, that is why. All good.

Jason: 00:47

Thanks for bearing with us if it sounds weird.

Joseph: 00:49

Yeah. Please bear with us. So let's jump straight into it. Jason, you've just published a couple of stories in very, very quick succession based on something that went viral, and we'll all get into that, and you've got a ton more tons more information about it. And it actually sort of symbolizes a lot that's happening in the media industry and with AI as well.

Joseph: 01:14

But the first story, the headline was Chicago Sun Times prints AI generated summer reading list with books that don't exist. So this thing starts blowing up on social media definitely Tuesday, potentially Monday as well. Correct me if I'm wrong. What was this thing that was blowing up on the face of it?

Jason: 01:37

Yeah. So the Chicago Sun Times is a newspaper in Chicago that's been around for a long time. There's a Chicago Tribune and then the Chicago Sun Times is like the second newspaper in Chicago and it it still exists. But basically, they ran this special insert in their Sunday paper this past Sunday called, heat index, your guide to the best summer. And this was a 64 page special section of the newspaper that was like what you should be doing this summer.

Jason: 02:18

You talk more about like what was in it. It was just like a year yeah. Like, have fun in the sun. Like, here's books you can read over the summer. Here's things that you can do, so on and so forth.

Jason: 02:29

And in that, they had an article called summer reading list for 2025. And in that reading list, they suggested a bunch of books that do not exist. So they were real authors like Isabel Allende, know, Andy Weir who wrote The Martian. But they they suggested reading The Last Algorithm by Andy Weir. And then the text of the article says, quote or like the blurb in the article says, quote, this time, the story follows a programmer who discovers that an AI system has developed consciousness and has been secretly influencing global events for years.

Jason: 03:07

This book doesn't exist. Like, Andy Weir has not written this book. Isabella Allende did not write a book called Tidewater, which is what they said to go read. So, you know, this is noticed by actually a book talker on threads of all places and then it got picked up on Blue Sky and it went like mega mega viral because it was an example of like a printed article that was clearly AI generated in some way.

Joseph: 03:34

Yeah. And I guess that's what makes it a little bit different because, obviously, longtime listeners of the show and readers of the site will know there's tons of AI slob everywhere all the time, AI generated articles or press releases or whatever. But this is different because it's as you say, the Chicago sometimes is basically like an institution or at least an incredibly long running newspaper and media company. Right? So it's a little bit different almost now to have this physically printed AI slob.

Joseph: 04:06

Or I suppose I should back up a a little bit. And was it just clear from the get go that this was probably AI generated just because it was getting stuff wrong? Like, was that the implication?

Jason: 04:16

I mean, that's what people were saying. Like, that was how it was shared on Blue Sky. And so I went and I bought a digital copy of the newspaper from the Chicago Sun Times, and I scrolled through it and I downloaded this heat index section, which again was 64 pages long. And I started scrolling through it and my origin story in journalism is that I I first worked as an intern at Washingtonian Magazine, which is a magazine in Washington DC. And my job was to fact check articles like this or like sec sections like this.

Jason: 04:50

I mean, there's all sorts of things. But basically, like, every local newspaper or magazine does this thing where they're like, summer is coming up, here are outdoor movies you can see, here's new restaurants you can check out, here's concerts you can do. And, they source this by like having a bunch of interns go to the websites of every music venue in a city and, like, compile this. Like, that's how I it used to be, that's how I did it. And very specifically, it will be like, go see this concert at this Chicago music venue.

Jason: 05:25

Like, that that's what this section probably should have been. And something that I noticed right away was that it was super generic. Like, they they didn't mention Chicago even one time in the entire section. The entire section starts off with, like, a hundred things to do on your summer bucket list, and it's like, go snorkeling in the crystal clear waters near your home. It's like, oh, yeah.

Jason: 05:49

Sure. There's yeah. Lake Michigan is not crystal clear. I don't know if you've ever checked it out. And the Chicago River, I don't know.

Jason: 05:58

I I mean, it is like a fun place to be in the summer, but it's not crystal clear snorkeling waters. And so, was just like, this is not like, at the very least, it's incredibly, incredibly generic. And then, I I saw that, you know, none of these books existed and there was actually no byline on the book list, but I

Joseph: 06:22

don't Was that common when you did this as well? Like, when you did this work, was would the intern's name be on there or was it also no byline?

Jason: 06:30

Well, it's funny. Often, it was not on there because it would just be like a calendar listing. So it was like it wouldn't say like Jason Keppelar compiled this list of concerts. Usually, our name would be like in the front of the magazine saying that, like, we worked at the magazine. And then to get a byline, you had to actually, like, write something.

Jason: 06:52

So you would have to write some blurbs and and sometimes you would get your, like, initials in there and sometimes you would get your actual name. And it was actually like a big to do whether you got a a byline or not. But I noticed that, like, every single bylined article in the entire section said Marco Buscaglia. Like, it was it was all done by one person. And so, I emailed that person and I was just like, what's going on here?

Jason: 07:21

This is going viral. Did you use AI? And he pretty much immediately responded to me and was like, I did use AI and I'm very sorry. And I'm like, I got caught, I'm embarrassed. He said And then he called me, or I called him rather.

Jason: 07:36

He gave me his phone number and I called him. And he said, quote, I do use AI for background at times, but always check out the material first. This time, I did not and I can't believe I missed it because it's so obvious. No excuses on me 100% and I'm completely embarrassed. And then, I talked to him on the phone and he sort of reiterated the same stuff.

Jason: 07:58

He was just, like, honestly, like, visibly shaken. I could tell he was pretty upset and just saying like he he's he knows that this is a big deal, that he's really embarrassed and, you know, knows that there's probably gonna be consequences for him.

Joseph: 08:16

Yeah. Which sucks because it sounds like a genuine mistake. Right? So you get the information. You identify the author.

Joseph: 08:27

You you speak to them for a little bit. You publish this story. You then get some more information because, of course, well, there's still the remaining question of, well, who actually made this as in who produced this? Because as you say, one part of it being really generic is like almost an indicator of it potentially being AI generated, but there's actually more of a business reason because it turns out this inlet wasn't just in the Chicago Sun Times. Right?

Joseph: 08:57

I think it was in in a Philly paper or or something as well. So then you published a second story called Viral AI Generated Summer Guide printed by Chicago Sun Times was made by magazine giant Hearst. How did that come about?

Jason: 09:12

Yeah. So I talked to people at the Chicago Sun Times. Like, talked to executives there and they basically explained how this happened. And they bought this entire package from Hearst, which is a huge magazine company. Like, William Randolph Hearst is, like, one of the first, like, media executives in The United States ever, like, very, very famous.

Jason: 09:35

And they they own a ton of magazines, but they also own this company or this subsidiary called King Features, which does syndication. And, they syndicate things like car talk and hints from Heloise, which is like how to clean your kitchen. Like, it will be it's like an advice column. They also do some horoscopes. They do some crossword puzzles, and then they do a lot of comics.

Jason: 09:59

They also weirdly do a column by Doctor. Oz. And so, like, newspapers around the country will buy this content and put it into their newspapers because it's cheaper to do that than it is to, like, do real journalism. And, this is like a This is not a new thing. Like, this has been going on forever.

Jason: 10:20

Like, newspapers will not have their I mean, some of them have their own cartoonists, for example, but very often, like, the journalism in a newspaper will be produced by the journalist at the newspaper, but then the comics will be nationally syndicated. And so, like, all of the you know, they'll buy Garfield from this company and put it in there. I mean, they'll favour. Yeah. They'll they'll buy a crossword puzzle and put it in there.

Jason: 10:47

And so, part of this business, King Features sells these inserts, which are just separate, like, basically mini newspapers that go into the newspaper. And, the Chicago Sun Times was like, we actually don't even read those. We just bought it, put it, like, send it to press and it got in there. And and now, we are upset because clearly, we should have been reading it, but we did not. And now, this is very embarrassing for us.

Emanuel: 11:14

That was the saddest part of the story in my opinion. Like, obviously, the AI component of it is something we report on all the time and it's bad, but I'm aware of it. The fact that somebody at the paper was like, we just straight up said we don't read what goes in our own paper and maybe we should, is so messed up and not what I expected. I also started out writing in printed newspapers. Hate to sound this old, but, like, that's just where the entry level jobs were back in the day when I was trying to get into this industry.

Emanuel: 11:53

And I wrote for these type of inserts. Like, thing that I would do is there was like a weekend edition or a holiday edition of the paper, and they wanted like a gift guide type thing. And I wrote about video games, so I was like, here's 50, you know, things you can buy for your kid. And I definitely got edits, you know, even though it was like an insert and it was sponsored and it was like definitely looked down upon, which is why I was able to get that type of work. I got edited by like a real newspaper editor before they printed it because it was in their newspaper, and I thought that was the standard.

Emanuel: 12:28

And the fact that this isn't the standard at the Chicago Sun Times is frankly shocking to me. And I just want to add, like, yes, it's an old newspaper. I don't know the ownership history. I'm sure it changed hands multiple times, but it's currently owned by Chicago Public Media, which also manages WBEZ, which is their, public radio station, which is a major it's like one of the biggest public radio stations in the country. That's where This American Life comes from.

Emanuel: 13:01

It's like this very well respected organization as well, and they have some news sites that I think are well respected locally. So it's not like some fly by night operation that's like flipping AI generated websites for money. It's like a real news organization that is doing this and just like really sad state of affairs for printed media. And I think possibly where, you know, new media hollowed out new media companies might be headed because newspapers have been gutted and kind of stumbling along for decades at this point, which I think is maybe how you get such low standards.

Jason: 13:52

Well, yeah. I I think that's really important and, like, we're not gonna do a history lesson about the Chicago Sun Times here because I would get something wrong. But, like, it was failing for a long time. Like, the the paper was in, like, a really precarious situation for a long time and it changed hands multiple times in the twenty tens when a lot of local newspapers died. And, like, the fact that Chicago public media bought it was seen as this, like, really big deal because they bought it and they're like, we're gonna focus on local journalism and a nonprofit model.

Jason: 14:33

And, you know, they sort of, like, took it back from this, like, investment firm that owned it. And so, there had been a lot of trust lost already over the years because the newspaper had been, like, super hollowed out. And over the last few years, like, under this public radio nonprofit situation and also as a unionized newsroom, like, they focused a lot on reporting on Chicago news again. And so then, for something like this to happen, it really, like, undermines a lot of that, like, really hard earned trust. Like, you can lose that very, very rapidly.

Jason: 15:20

And, I feel really bad for the journalists at this newspaper because they had nothing to do with this, like, at all. And, the union gave us a statement saying, like, we didn't even know that this was happening, like, in any way, shape or form because why would they? They're busy writing articles and doing reporting and publishing things and then, like, a business person somewhere has run a calculation that if they buy this package from this third party company and then load it up with ads, they can make more money than it costs to, you know, actually, like, buy the content within there. And, clearly, like, the newsroom just doesn't have the resources to review this sort of thing, which is not me saying, like, this should have happened, but it's like a really it's just a really sad situation in in my opinion.

Joseph: 16:14

Yeah. And I mean, Emmanuel touched on it with sort of the shock that this stuff isn't even edited. Jason, just to go back a little bit, when you have this conversation with Chicago sometimes executives, what was the vibe in that conversation? Because you've you've spoken to the author, now you're speaking to the actual paper. Like, what was the vibe of the second conversation?

Jason: 16:38

I mean, they were kinda like a hard day, hard day for us. Like, we're we're going through this. I do think that I don't know how to say this, and it's in the article, but he was basically like, we are creating guidelines for how our journalists use AI in the future and that they don't have a public version of it yet because they're still working on what those will be. But it's very clear that the rule at Chicago Sun Times is not going to be don't use AI. They're like, we already use AI for some data processing and things like this.

Jason: 17:19

And, I mean, we talked about it a million times on this podcast, but it's just like one mistake like this where you invent quotes, you invent a person, like AI invents some numbers or research that doesn't exist, and you publish it, it's like you lose your credibility immediately. And so, I mean, I I'm curious what y'all think, but, like, as you mentioned at the top of this show, Joseph, we have talked about AI swap endlessly on this show and at four zero four Media. And some of them get a lot of attention, but like this story went extremely viral. Like, is talking about this story and I'm curious why you think this captured so much attention so quickly.

Joseph: 18:09

Well, Sam, I feel I feel like it's funny because when whenever Sam or any of you say, woah. This thing is really big on my timeline. I go to my blue sky. I'm like, I'm not seeing this at all, but I think I follow, like, a hundred people, and I don't really scroll. But, Sam, I feel like you have a better grasp on what is going viral on blue sky.

Joseph: 18:32

Any idea why this particularly popped off over there?

Sam: 18:37

Yeah. I mean, I think your blue sky in particular is, like, info sec op sec people. Right? Mostly. Mine is, like, a lot of, like, AI ethics research people and also just, like, normal people who are interested in the stuff that we're interested in.

Sam: 18:54

Blue Sky really, really hates AI, like, as a as a group. I think I can, like, generalize and say that, like, that platform specifically when something chaotic or catastrophic or even just, like, embarrassing happens in the world of AI and especially Slop, people point at it and say, this is what we're talking about. This is what we've been warning people about. This is what we're mad about when people use AI in general because then you start to see the crack show in the form of print media. And I think maybe it being print hit different for people.

Sam: 19:31

I think people still see print journalism as, like, this kind of sacred thing, which is funny because it's so desperately underfunded and disrespected. But if something happens in the digital media world, I think it it's different to people than it getting sent out to your house and hitting the printers and things like that. Did we all start at newspapers? I also started at a a print newspaper and watched the printers put my stories out there. We're all old as hell, I think is what we've learned.

Jason: 20:09

Don't think I've ever worked for a newspaper. Like, Washington is like a magazine Okay. Yeah. Which is like notably not a newspaper just because they were like, oh, we only do this once a month. Like, take your time.

Jason: 20:22

Call like, I remember I used to have to call restaurants to ask them what their phone number was. So I would call the restaurant calling them. And then they'll be like, okay. Is this the right restaurant? Okay.

Jason: 20:33

Is

Sam: 20:35

your refrigerator running? I used to read The Washingtonian. I was I was a fan of it. But, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, I think people still have this idea, this, like, lofty idea of print as infallible or something. And, you know, in in a way, it's like once it's out there, once it's printed, you can't just, like, make an edit, make a you can make a correction as part of another issue, but you can't just go in and fix the errors and have it reflect the record reflect that.

Sam: 21:00

It's like, once it's out there, it's out there. So, you know, I think that's why people are they saw us a little bit differently. Also, I think there's, you know, there's always a snowball effect of things going viral. When someone's mad about something, everyone loves to be mad about something. So that happens a lot on social media in general and probably happened here, but it ended up being, like, a really interesting path to follow.

Sam: 21:20

So I'm glad Jason did the the, like, work on tracking tracking the guy down and also tracking down the executives responsible for this.

Jason: 21:29

Yeah. I think the last thing I wanna say is, like, we wouldn't do this as in, like, I I I'm not I don't wanna defend sort of, like, anyone involved, but I think there's, like, a really big pile on at the moment of the fact that this occurred. And I think that the issue here like, don't wanna defend anyone who who did this, but the issue here is like a really, really bad, horrible, horrible systemic issue where the economics of local newspapers are not making any sense and a lot of the people who are running them, not speaking about any specific newspaper broadly, the people who are running them like don't really know how to figure it out. And so they are, like, throwing shit at the wall and that includes, like, oh, we will just, like, syndicate this random section from this random company and put it in our newspaper and not even read it because we had to lay off all our copy editors because there's only like two people who work here now or whatever. And that's happening like all over the country.

Jason: 22:47

And then also, I don't wanna defend the person who did this. Again, like, I I don't use AI in this way and I don't think that people should use AI in this way and I think it's, like, bound to keep, like, blowing up in people's faces when they do this. But a lot of companies are forcing their employees to either hit productivity levels that are impossible. They're being, like, told that they must use AI or they will be replaced. I don't know what happened here, like, as in I don't think that anyone told this person to use AI.

Jason: 23:27

But, at the same time, like, putting together an entire 64 page summer guide, there's like 30 articles and he wrote or like his name is on every single one of them.

Joseph: 23:40

Like He was assigned all of those.

Jason: 23:42

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, I mean, I doubt he was paid very well for it just because of the nature of what it is. And I just like I think that we're in like a super, super, super bleak situation. And so, like, if it wasn't this person, it would have been someone else who did it for some other newspaper at some point.

Jason: 24:04

And it's like, this is a fight that people are wanting to have right now, and I think for a good reason. But, like, you could easily replace these characters with any other person. Like, this is going to happen again. We've already seen it happen a few times to online publications and it's a it's a symptom of, like, the disastrous economic situation that journalism is in, that newspapers in particular, and that local news in particular, and and then also the fact that in order to, like, quote unquote fix this problem, they're like, oh, we'll just, use AI. It will make us a lot, like more effective and efficient and blah blah blah.

Jason: 24:45

And that's happening in every industry right now. And it's it's like leading to disastrous, like public trust issues, disastrous economic issues, like it's not it's just, like, not a good situation.

Joseph: 24:58

Yeah. Totally. I I'm sure it will happen again as you say. Alright. We'll leave that there.

Joseph: 25:04

And when we come back, we'll talk about more about trust in, I guess, public institutions, but more education is all about chat, GPT, and AI in schools and a bunch of documents that Jason got as well. We'll be right back after this. Alright. And we are back with the second set of stories here with a singular story. The headline is American schools were deeply unprepared for chat GPT public records show.

Joseph: 25:50

Jason, you wrote this one as well. It's not really in response because you you did this in parallel that you get into, but there was a a really deep New York Magazine article recently that I think all of us, you know, read or at least saw people talking about. Everyone is cheating their way through college, and some of the anecdotes in there are just insane, like people going to college and university or whatever and basically becoming completely reliant on chat GPT and sort of just breezing their way through education and not really learning anything. I'm sort of summarizing obviously at a super high level, but that's basically what the takeaway was. In parallel or I guess before, Jason, you had done a bunch of public records requests like foyers, but to state and local agencies.

Joseph: 26:42

What were the requests for and who did you file them with? Yeah.

Jason: 26:48

I actually filed these back in December 2022. I'm so What? Yeah. They're they're really old.

Joseph: 26:57

I thought you're gonna say 2024. Jesus. Okay.

Jason: 27:00

No. I filed them a really long time ago. And the reason that I filed them was ChatGPT came out in November 2022. And soon after that, there was a scandal, I believe in Florida, where it was like students cheat on essay question by using ChatGPT and it became was too like It became national news. This became national news that, like, a couple of students used ChatGPT to write an essay.

Jason: 27:28

And so at the time, I was like, oh, what are school districts? Like, how are they thinking about this? How are they teaching their teachers to think about this? So I filed 50 I filed, like, 65 public records requests. They were all identical.

Jason: 27:45

I filed with every single state, and then I filed with New York City, Los Angeles, Unified School District, like, a few in Maryland because that's where I grew up. So I was curious what they were up to and just some, like, other school like, local school districts to see if they had anything mentioning Chad GPT, which is really funny because just the way that public records work, as we talked before, is like it took, in some cases, years to get answers back. And so what I got are documents from, like, January, February, March of '20 '20 '3. And so it captured, like, the the ways that schools were thinking about this in the earliest days of CHAT GPT. So, like, for example, the entire state like, the the California Board of Education had not heard of it.

Jason: 28:40

Like, that was their

Joseph: 28:41

official that at that point in time.

Jason: 28:43

Yeah. But this we're talking, like, March 2023, which is after a series of, like, news cycles where it's, like, millions of people have downloaded ChatGPT. Like, it was pretty hyped if you recall.

Joseph: 28:56

Yeah. The biggest the biggest app launch ever. Yeah.

Jason: 29:00

Yeah. And they were like it wasn't that they didn't have any documents about it. It's that the documents they did have were people saying like, there were there were media requests being like, what is your policy on chat GPT? Like, what do you think? And they're like, we actually don't know what that is.

Jason: 29:18

We have no policy, and we're not thinking about making a policy because we've never heard of it before. Whereas other states, like New York State, for example, had brought in some like, had put together some presentations for, professional development for teachers, like, here's what you need to know about AI in the classroom, so on and so forth. Very interestingly, New York City banned ChatGPT almost immediately. And then they brought in this group called Project Recess, which is like a a nonprofit that is a Google partner. It's like a it's kind of unclear exactly what they do, but they have funding from Google.

Jason: 30:01

And they came in and they were like, ChatGPT and AI is actually good. Here's how you can use it in your classroom. And here's how to get it unbanned. Like, here's how to put in a formal request asking for it to be unbanned in your classroom, which is kind of wild.

Joseph: 30:19

Yeah. So, again, it's really, really early on or relatively early on, and some haven't heard of it. But already then, there's like the pro AI crowd going to these schools. It sounds like all these these institutions or whatever and basically singing the praises for AI. Do you think well, I mean, do you have any sense of how the schools then reacted to that?

Joseph: 30:44

Like, is is that in the documents? Did they go, oh, okay. Sure. Whatever. Or you know what I mean?

Joseph: 30:49

What was reaction to that?

Jason: 30:50

Yeah. I mean I mean, it's really interesting because a lot of states brought in consultants to be like, how should we think about this? And in those early days, you're not gonna have, like, anti AI consultants. Like, that's just not how this works, really. Like, there has to be a a thing before there's a backlash to the thing.

Jason: 31:14

And so, there was this presentation called ChatGBT and AI in Education that was given by three different consultants, to, I believe it was Mississippi, where each of those people who made this presentation have since written books about how teachers can use AI and teach people teach students how to use AI in the classroom. And it had a slide that said, like, warning, going back to writing essays only in class can hurt struggling learners and doesn't get our kids ready for their future. It had a slide called it's time to rethink, quote, plagiarism and cheating. And then it talked about, like, the new engineers, the prompt engineer, and things like that. And so I think that generative AI and ChatGPT in general have, like, forgive me, but disrupted society to a point where it's it's impossible to, like, ask teachers and school districts to be like, oh, why didn't you stop this?

Jason: 32:22

Like, why didn't you nip this in the bud and tell your students not to use it? Like, they were gonna use it regardless. I don't think that there was, like, any way to prevent this from happening. But at the same time, it's very clear from these documents that very, very, very few schools were thinking proactively about how disruptive this technology was going to be. Yeah.

Jason: 32:48

And that's why I wanted to write this story in the first place. So the reason that it took me, like, why I didn't publish it before was because, frankly, like, I was busy. There were thousands of pages of documents and they came back, like, slowly over many years because they just took a long time. And then I saw the New York Mag article, and I was like, oh, I actually have all these documents. Like, let me go back through and, like, look at what was happening because the fact that AI is, like, completely disrupting the school experience for both teachers and students is a huge, huge, huge deal at this point.

Jason: 33:24

And so, I was curious, like, what like, what did the early days of this look like? And it did not did not look very good.

Joseph: 33:31

Yeah. It's definitely instructive and shows us how we got here where I don't know. There there was that anecdote the other day where a teacher, I believe, a university enforced handwritten essays in class. So people can't use ChantGPT because you're literally not doing it on the laptop or a computer, and you're doing it in the class right there. And then some students were saying, you're discriminating against my learning style, like as if using ChantGPT is the same as being a visual learner or something.

Joseph: 34:06

And then maybe I've just said something really, really bigoted. I'm gonna regret it now in, like, a few years or a few months or so. But that's a wild thing to say that my learning style is using AI. I don't know, man. Just sounds like you're not learning.

Emanuel: 34:17

I think to try and save Joe from cancellation, there was like

Joseph: 34:20

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Emanuel: 34:22

There's there are many reasons why students would want to speak their answers to teachers or, like, type them instead of doing them by hand. There's, like, motor skill issues that, like, are legitimate issues. But I believe the students had some other like, he formulated questions in a particular way so ChatGPT would not be able to answer them, and they said that that interfered with their learning style, which is different than having some sort of, like, learning disability.

Joseph: 34:54

Yeah. Totally. And again, I I suppose this wouldn't really be clear in the documents, Jason, from just themselves because they're a very point in time. But when you combine that with what Emmanuel was just saying and the New York mag article, and it feels like a different article comes out every week or so about the same thing. Like, are we cooks when it comes to education?

Joseph: 35:17

Like, is this it?

Jason: 35:19

Well, so I also wrote this article because I wanted teachers to check to hit me up and say, like, their current experiences with it. So there'll be a follow-up article probably next week about this. And I would say that the responses I'm getting, I expected them to be bad. I expected the situation to be bad. I didn't expect some of the anecdotes that I have heard, which I I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Jason: 35:45

But I think we're pretty cooked. I think it's pretty scary. I think it's probably a hollowing of the middle probably where it's like students who are sort of at the top end of their classes will probably still read books and learn how to write, and will, like, reject AI to some extent, whereas a lot of the people in the middle who are, like, just barely getting by in the past but were still learning things are going to, like, start farming out a lot of their work to chat GBT and or other tools. And what I've heard from teachers is, like, the the tools to to catch students doing this, it's like, one, it's kind of a losing game because, what, you're gonna, like, fail every single one of your students. It's like the teacher the parents aren't going to allow that.

Jason: 36:40

Like, I'm not a parent. I'm gonna paint with a super broad brush right now and get myself canceled. But it's like parents don't let teachers fail their kids anymore. It's like they will, like, go Karen on their asses, like, as is what I've heard. And it's like students have their phones in class.

Jason: 37:02

There's, like, been a huge fight about, you know, getting kids to pay any attention at all in class because they have their phones, because they're on social media all the time, blah blah blah. And it's just like, I don't know, I'm gonna sound like I'm 10,000 years old right now, but it's like, it seems extraordinarily bleak to me where it's like a mix of phones, social media, TikTok, AI, like, fighting like like, the crumb of attention span that kids have left is, like, teachers are are sort of fighting for that crumb of attention span, and it's just, like, not going super well.

Emanuel: 37:44

I'm gonna pull up your card.

Jason: 37:46

The scariest anecdote is that a Spanish teacher in high school hit me up and she was like, I can't teach these kids Spanish because they don't know the words in English that I need to teach them. They're like, they do not even know the words in English of Spanish one when I'm like, Libro means book. I mean, they probably know the word book, but, like, there's a lot of words that they're like, this is what this is how you say this, and here's what it means in English. And she's like, they don't even know They don't even know the English words. And it's like, scary.

Jason: 38:18

Sorry, Emmanuel.

Emanuel: 38:19

Yeah. You need to start with more foundational concepts like Fortnite dances, kind of build from there to, like, spoken language. No. I was gonna say that, like, I generally agree that you're just gonna see, like, an acceleration of, like, have and have nots, probably, like the hollowing out of of the middle, as you say. But I'm starting to my son is very young.

Emanuel: 38:42

He's, like, not even two years old, but we're starting to, like, have conversations about schools, and I'm talking to parents. And what surprised me is that I think it's just like a way more varied dynamic environment than when we were growing up. Like, there were different types of schools, but now there's, like, so many different types of schools and so many different ideas of, like, what is correct schooling, which ranges all the way from, like, super test score focused and like preparing for college and just like, you know, maxing out like your stats. And then there's like a totally opposite, no homework, no sitting down at your desk, you make up your own classes and your own goals and there's no grades, and like parents are really concerned about like, I don't want my kid to be sitting down all day. And I didn't even know that was like an idea that existed and was popular, but it is.

Emanuel: 39:40

And there's a whole bunch of stuff that exists in between those two extremes, and it's like, TBD, what is best for kids? We don't know. Like, it's it's all changing really fast, and I think it will be bad. I don't know. But it will certainly be very, very, very different than what we were familiar with.

Joseph: 40:01

Yeah. I'm sure you just made a bunch of really good points, but I was playing Subway Surfers, so, you know, I have no idea where you're going with that. Okay. We'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out.

Joseph: 40:12

But if you are a paying for a four media subscriber, we're gonna talk about AI and Star Wars, funnily enough, and, well, sort of the studio linked to it. This will be fun. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404media.co. We'll be right back after this. Alright.

Joseph: 40:43

And here we are in the subscribers only section. The headline of this one that Emanuel wrote is Star Wars shows the future of AI special effects and it sucks. First question, is Star Wars good?

Emanuel: 40:56

In my opinion, Star Wars is extremely good. I have always been a huge Star Wars nerd. There was a period in my life where, like, my parents really tried to get me to read, and I was like, I'm not gonna read a book if it's not about Star Wars.

Joseph: 41:09

Dude, you just went on this rant about education.

Emanuel: 41:12

But I built. You know what I mean? I started reading it like, obi wan fan fiction, and then I read, actual books.

Jason: 41:19

I mean, I've read the, the the canon books, like the the in between the Star Wars novels. Right?

Emanuel: 41:26

Sorry?

Joseph: 41:27

Like, there's hundreds

Jason: 41:28

and hundreds of books that build out, like, the Star

Emanuel: 41:31

Wars book. Oh, yeah. There's like an infinite amount of books and comics and yeah. Whatever whatever you want. There's more books than you can read for sure.

Emanuel: 41:40

Yeah. Star Wars is good. There's a lot of it. So some of it is bad. There's more of it than ever.

Emanuel: 41:47

So some of it is very bad, but I don't know. They just finished Andor, which is, like, really, really good, like a legitimately good show even if you're not a big Star Wars nerd. But, yes, answer Star Wars good. Two thumbs up.

Joseph: 42:00

I do need to shut Andor out. So when I was a kid, my exposure to Star Wars was just like a VHS tape of the Empire Strikes Back that we taped off the TV because it was clearly, like, shown on TV at some point. And, like, I would just watch that one over and over again, and I don't think I've ever seen Return to the Jedi. And I don't think I've even seen A New Hope. I'm just like, I kinda know what happens.

Emanuel: 42:24

That's fine. Yeah. That's a great Star Wars experience in my opinion.

Joseph: 42:28

And then you play the games, and then it's different. And then this will change. And then I have to pivot from that because the voices could be me and Emmanuel talking about that for a very, very long time. But so wait. Wait.

Joseph: 42:38

Wait. No. Before we move on, Sam, is Star Wars good?

Sam: 42:42

I'm not a big Star Wars head. I don't know.

Joseph: 42:46

Is that what they're

Sam: 42:46

I trust I trust I'm shocked that Emanuel I'm learning this about Emanuel. Every once a week, I learned Emanuel fact, and I'm still learning them. I think it's beautiful. No. I I mean, I like the prequels.

Sam: 42:57

I'll say that. I'll be on the record saying that.

Joseph: 42:59

Jar Jar Binks.

Sam: 43:00

Freaky deaky shit happening.

Emanuel: 43:02

I know that Jason is a big prequel defender.

Jason: 43:06

Like, foresaw the Trump trade war, which is very prescient of George Lucas. I've seen all the movies. I haven't gone deep into the lore, but I think that all of the movies are good, including the new trilogy. I like all of them. Really, like, really fun stuff.

Jason: 43:23

Lightsabers, etcetera. They can

Joseph: 43:25

Dude, they had a lightsaber, and then, like, they put two lightsabers on the same one. Like, that's pretty sick with Darth Maul. And then the new ones are like, let's put more lightsabers on the like, I don't know how you get better than that, though.

Jason: 43:36

Well, have Driver has that the light one that has the little

Emanuel: 43:41

Let's say light. Yeah.

Joseph: 43:42

Yeah. Right. But then how do you go for how do you go further than that? You know what I mean? You put like a gun on the lights.

Joseph: 43:48

I I don't know. So these classic films are links to industrial light and magic. What is ILM, Emmanuel, for those who don't know?

Emanuel: 44:01

That's the special effects studios that was stood up to make Star Wars look like Star Wars. It was doing a lot of special effects back in, '77, right, was the first movie, that just, like, weren't possible or weren't done before. And just a foundational studio and ultimately part of the film industry is ILM. Those people initially at ILM, but then went on to do, like, other work, other movies, other special effects studios. And, you know, obviously, today, effects are, like, such a huge part of the biggest movies in the world, and all of that is is based on that work, is back in the day, a lot of miniatures and stop motion, and, like, in camera effects.

Emanuel: 44:50

But as the years went on, like, CGI and and so on. But always, a huge focus on, like, the craft and filmmaking and puppeteering and all this, like, very hands on artist focused work. Yeah.

Joseph: 45:13

And, of course, visual effects today are intersecting rapidly with AI. There was a TED talk recently. You know, who gave who gave that talk, and what was that about? Because that came first. You saw that, then you read this piece.

Joseph: 45:30

Right?

Emanuel: 45:31

Yeah. So the reason I wrote this blog is I saw this TED Talk pop up on my feeds, and it's, this guy named Rod Bradow, and he is a Lucasfilm senior vice president. And he oversees basically all of special effects across all of Lucasfilm, which, by the way, is now owned by Disney. But he also oversees ILM, which does a lot of that work, but not all of it. And he gave a TED talk, the title of which was, like, AI in the future of filmmaking or something like that.

Emanuel: 46:06

And when someone like that is talking about generative AI and the future of filmmaking, I'm going to pay attention because those pitches usually come from AI executive. So, you know, Sam wrote about this company called Runway AI. The CEO of that company is constantly tweeting about AI and the future of filmmaking. And it's sort of like whatever because he is building the product that he is pitching and he is saying is the future. And, like, whether it works or not, it's just like I don't hold that opinion that highly because He's selling me something.

Emanuel: 46:43

Yeah. But this guy, it's like, he's been in the business for a long time. He manages, like, the most well respected studio in this field, and he has something to say about it. I'm I was like, okay. I'm gonna put this on and, like, watch this whole TED Talk.

Emanuel: 46:56

And it's a really good TED Talk. Like, in the style of TED Talk, it's, like, inspiring and engrossing, and he goes through the history of the studio and, like, talks about, like, the origin of ILM and how they made all these early shots and talks about, like, specific people and, like, what wonderful artists they are. And then he sort of pivots to AI, and he, I think, addresses the elephant in the room, which is the special effects slash visual effects industry is super worried and, I would say, largely anti generative AI at the moment. One, because they think it will replace their jobs and they will have less work and they will lose their jobs. And then the other reason is that and we've seen this with writers and other artists.

Emanuel: 47:42

There's something inherently disrespectful about generative AI when it's doing, quote unquote, creative work because all that work is based on the ingested human labor and art of other people, and it just you know, like, science of it is more complicated, but essentially, it is just remixing a bunch of old work. Those people don't get credited, and the work is not as good. And what Rob says in the video is like, I'm really sad that this is the narrative right now because we think that these are really powerful tools and we really believe in artists, and we think that these tools will really empower artists and allow them to make more and better things than ever before. And you should trust me because, like, as I've just laid out in this TED Talk, we're like an artist slash filmmaker focused institution. And then he's like, let me show you what that future what that wonderful future looks like.

Emanuel: 48:49

And he plays play on a on a film that he says was created by, one person at ILM who is like a known special effects guy I learned after I published a story. And he made this by himself with generative AI tools over the course of two weeks, which I think is a long time given the end product because, like, it sucks. Like, I think it's really bad. I watched it and I was like, this has to be a joke. This is so embarrassing to, like, present as the finale of your TED Talk and, like, the punchline of your argument.

Emanuel: 49:27

And I kind of I I like, I couldn't believe it and I said so on Slack. And then Jason was also like, wow. Like, this looks like shit. And I was like, okay. I think it was a Friday or something.

Emanuel: 49:37

I don't remember when, but I was like, I'm just gonna write this and see how I feel about it. And I published it, and it's like people hated it more than I imagined. Like, people were, like, shocked by how by how bad it is. So at least it's like, I don't know, we're all on the same page. It's like, yes.

Emanuel: 49:53

It looks very bad.

Joseph: 49:54

Well, what is bad about it exactly? The the article focused on the these creature designs. Right? Is it is it that mostly?

Emanuel: 50:04

Yeah. So the high concept for the like, it's a it's a short film. It's two minutes. It's called Star Wars field guide, and it is the pitch is like, what if he sent a probe droid to an alien planet? This is what it would capture.

Joseph: 50:22

So it's sort of like Snap, but for Star Wars. Like what? Pokemon Snap,

Emanuel: 50:26

but for Star Wars. Say, like, Blue Planet or something, like a like a nature documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

Emanuel: 50:32

So so that that's basically what you see. It's like two minutes of shots of, like, alien creatures, and the aliens are all basically, like, one animal crossed with another animal. So it's like let me look at the you have, like, a turtle with a crocodile head. You have a snail, with a bird head. You have a polar bear with zebra stripes.

Emanuel: 51:04

You have a blue lion. You have it's like it's it's just there is nothing and the reason that this particular thing, like, this particular pitch and short film really rubs people the wrong way is that Star Wars is known for really good creature design. Like, the reason I think it sticks in people's memories and it's just, like, embedded in our culture is, like, a Yoda, a Chewbacca. You know what I mean? It's just, like, these things

Joseph: 51:37

The Chabas.

Emanuel: 51:38

Yeah. They're, like they're sort of echoes of, like, Java is kind of like a slug. Chewbacca is kind of like a big dog. Like, he but but it's it's it's there is enough ingenuity and original ideas in there to, like, really capture your imagination, and Star Wars is full of them. And by this point, because there is so much Star Wars, like, part of the formula is to, like, keep introducing these things.

Emanuel: 52:04

So, like, in another fictional universe, if you have, like, three movies from the seventies and eighties and you were going to make new ones, you're like, okay. We have, like, this lore bible filled with, like, creature creature designs. We're just gonna keep reusing them. And Star Wars makes the point of always introducing new ones because that's part of the magic. You're, like, watching a scene and you're like, what the fuck is that?

Emanuel: 52:23

Look at that weird little guy. I was actually watching Andor, and there was a scene where, like, this character is trying to sneak into, like, a heavily guarded hospital, and I paused it. And I I told my wife, was like, look at this weird little guy. It's like, what is up with this weird little guy in this shot? And she was like, let me read my book, please.

Emanuel: 52:43

But it's like, it's a known it's a known thing. So to say, like, here's an AI generated Star Wars film filled with nothing but alien creatures and all of them look like this is just really, really awful. Really, really embarrassing for ILM.

Jason: 53:01

I think we should just not say anything and see how long Emmanuel will talk about the little creatures that he noticed in Andor and how excited he'll get.

Emanuel: 53:10

Top three little Star Wars guys, Babu Frick. Exactly. Exactly. Name. The guy that Jabba's guy Jabba's little guy.

Jason: 53:20

The you're not gonna need any help from any of us.

Emanuel: 53:24

So, yeah. To get it. If you have a

Jason: 53:26

good game, fuck. Well, mean, well, so that was, like, one of the big criticisms of the prequels, though, as a prequel defender is that they used too much CG. And so, like, when JJ Abrams took over the new trilogy, was like, we're going back to practical effects. Like, we are gonna, like, build out puppets. Like, Yoda is gonna be a puppet again versus, like, a CG Yoda or whatever.

Jason: 53:48

And people were, like, really happy about that. And so, it feels like Star Wars already made this mistake once and people hated it, and now they're like, oh, yeah. We got a mid journey and a runway here. We have top minds on the case typing zebra with with, elephant, like, trunk, and we're gonna put this in the next thing. So, I mean, it just feels like a very perilous path to me.

Joseph: 54:15

The the vibe of these creatures, like the peacock head and the snail body, it just gives the vibe of that meme of the woman with the frozen food on her hair, and it's like, she's so crazy. Love her. Like, that's the fucking vibe of these. Well, you're so crazy. You could bind a crocodile with a rhino's ass or something.

Joseph: 54:36

Like, who cares, man? It's it's nuts.

Emanuel: 54:39

Salacious B. Crom is the name of the character that we're thinking of, by the way. Okay.

Joseph: 54:46

Just a a couple more briefly because it's there's not just the there's not just the Star Wars aspect of it. There's also just like, if you went to chat GPT or something similar, you could generate something that looks kinda like this, maybe better. You know what I mean? Like, how does this compare to what everybody else is doing with freely available tools compared to, you know, something that's apparently coming out of a professional and iconic effects studio?

Emanuel: 55:16

Right. So they didn't say what tools they used. My read on it is that they're using, like, not even the current generation of top of the line AI video generators. I was actually gonna ask Jason as, like, our top ranking AI swap scholar, how these compare to, like, the kind of swap we see on Instagram, for example. And I would say it's, like, same level or lower.

Emanuel: 55:45

Like, we've seen AI generated videos on Instagram just by random Internet users that, like, look better.

Jason: 55:52

I have definitely seen better. I mean, I would say that this is this is better than the average, but, like, top tier Instagram slop, far better than this. Far more, it just looks better. Like, I don't know what to say production quality

Emanuel: 56:09

of Higher fidelity and also, like, weirder, honestly.

Jason: 56:13

Weirder, more imaginative Yeah. Like, comes from, you know, either, like, a guy was high while making this in, like, a somewhat interesting way perspective, like, versus here's what a corporation created. Just has a little bit more love, I I guess, I would say.

Joseph: 56:34

That's fair. You touched on this, Emmanuel, but sort of last thing. What does this show us about the special effects industry? Like, I know, obviously, you're not a movie reporter, but you're someone who obviously digests a lot of this content and and the iconic stuff as well. I mean, what's your vibe and what this shows us?

Joseph: 56:55

Like, are there just like some executives who are delusional or something? Like, what do you think is the impact gonna be on the actual movie and special effect industry? You're muted, Emmanuel. Keep that in. I love it.

Joseph: 57:08

Fuck.

Emanuel: 57:09

I would also I would say, first of all, if you're in the industry, then, like, reach out to me and tell me what's going on. I would love to hear from you. My read on it is and I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's like, will AI have some use in visual effects? Certainly. And it is already being used.

Emanuel: 57:28

I think it was also the prequels where it's one of the first places where they did this. But, like, there's crowd shots with, you know, thousands of people in an audience watching podracing or something. And I believe some of that was AI generated to, like, animate all those, like, little figures. So you can see how you would build on that and that becomes useful and takes a lot of the tedium, out of the visual effects work. What we saw in the TED talk very much reads like something that is coming from the executive class where they're managing a company.

Emanuel: 58:10

They want to signal that they are hip to the best and latest technology and that they're not going to be left behind, if things progress in that way. So it's like, yeah. Look. We're also using AI. We're efficient.

Emanuel: 58:27

We can save costs this way. We can make really cool stuff this way. Whether they do or not, they just want to communicate that it's like, yes, AI is good. We also think that. Whether we'll actually see full on AI generated movies, at this point, I don't I don't see it at all.

Emanuel: 58:43

I think a good reference point is, like, this article that Jason wrote about, I forget which which company it was, but, like, did an AI film festival. And, like, that's just kind of where things are with AI generated movies. They don't look good enough.

Joseph: 59:00

Yeah. Totally. Alright. Let's leave that there, and I will play us out. As a reminder, four zero four media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers.

Joseph: 59:15

If you do wish to subscribe to four zero four media and directly support our work, please go to 404media.co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast.

Joseph: 59:37

That stuff really helps us out. Here is one of those from Arm Twisted. Four zero four media is consistently one of the best sources for deeply reported reality based journalism on tech including AI. The podcast provides deeper and very engaging discussions of a selection of stories each episode has an fantastic way to stay up to date. Thank you so much.

Joseph: 59:57

Sorry if I read the same review twice. I'm trying to keep track of all of them. This has been ForRefull Media. We'll see you again next week.