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David Sirota 0:10
Hey there and welcome to another episode of lever time the flagship podcast from the lever, our independent reader supported investigative news outlet. I'm your host, as always, David Sirota in the first half of today's show, we're going to be talking about Joe Biden's speech in Philadelphia last week, in which he called out Magga Republicans as the single greatest threat to American democracy. We're also going to be discussing why the Biden administration still seems to be trying to crush student debtors in bankruptcy court. And we'll be talking about a Democratic primary for a congressional seat in Rhode Island, and the Wall Street back candidate currently leading in the polls, the larger trend, being big money trying to once again by a Democratic primary. Then later on in the show, we're going to be sharing our first field segment out in the streets. Our coverage of the Labor Day March in New York City, which was co organized by the Amazon labor union and Starbucks workers united the levers Julia rock and producer Frank were on the ground at the March talking to organizers, attendees and the ACLU President Chris Smalls. And the march happened when there was some very good news for some of that unionization effort. This week. Also, our paid subscribers will get a bonus segment, my interview with a Tufts University professor, whose new book argues that too many people are obsessed with what he calls political hobby ism, rather than actual activism, and organizing for real power. If you want access to lever time premium, you can head over to lever news.com To become a supporting subscriber that gives you access to all of our premium content. And you'll be able to directly support the investigative journalism that we do here at the lever for the first part of today's show. I'm now joined by the levers Julia rock. Hey, Julia, how was your weekend?

Julia Rock 2:05
You know, not bad. How about you?

David Sirota 2:08
It was okay at a nice BBQ here in Denver for Labor Day. We're also joined by the levers Matthew Cunningham cook. Hey, Matthew.

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 2:16
Hey, David. Glad to be here.

David Sirota 2:17
And as always, producer Frank, what's up? Frank, you were at the protest in New York this weekend, right?

Producer Frank 2:23
Yeah, Julia and I both went it was a hot Labor Day. And it was a hot labor summer. But it was a lot of fun. It was was really great being out there.

David Sirota 2:31
I can't wait to hear the segments on it later in the show. But for the first part of the show, we're going to go through a bunch of questions to round up the news of the last week or so. Okay, question. One was Joe Biden's speech in Philadelphia enough to save democracy. So it appears the dark Brandon continues his rise in the polls, and he is now moving into a fight that he portrays as a fight to save American democracy. Quick clarification, for those of you who don't know, dark Brandon is the celebratory name that liberals on Twitter and on social media, have coined for Joe Biden now that his administration seems to be doing some good things that actually help people a little bit belated, but certainly some things like debt cancellation that actually do help people.

Producer Frank 3:23
And that is admittedly confusing. Because dark Brandon is good even though it sounds like it's bad. Dark Brandon equals good. That's all you need to know. The Dark

David Sirota 3:32
is as a positive. I guess. I don't know the exact mythology behind this. But dark Brandon is a way I guess people complement

Producer Frank 3:40
Joe Biden. The Internet is a confusing place. We can't make sense of it.

David Sirota 3:44
So confusing. So last week, on Thursday, Biden gives this speech at Independence Hall in Philadelphia, obviously, the place where the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were both ratified. And in another surprising turn, dark Brandon appeared and called out what he believes is the biggest threat currently facing American democracy. Here's a snippet of what he said

Producer Frank 4:09
just a heads up for the audience. I did speed up the audio a little bit because Joe Biden is a slow talker, but I don't want anyone accused. I don't want anyone accusing us of doctoring. Okay, that is not what this was.

Joe Biden 4:19
And here, in my view is what is true. Magga Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They did not recognize the will of the people that refuse to accept the results of a free election. And they're working right now. As I speak in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself. Magga forces are determined to take this country backwards, backwards to an America where there is no right to choose no right to privacy. No right to contraception, no right to marry who you love. They promote authoritarian leaders. And they fanned the flames of political violence that are a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country.

David Sirota 5:11
So this is all scandalized. There's like this big scandal like Joe Biden's speech is so scandalous. I mean, to my mind, this is like mom and apple pie shit. I mean, this is like, the basic thing a president and a party leader should do. And by the way, I might my other take here is that this is long overdue. We need to start calling out fascism very explicitly. But there's one thing that I think that was missing here, Biden is rightly attacking the far right. And for reasons he listed out that are factual, but he's sort of insinuating that the rise of fascism is some kind of like, random, evil, kind of something out of like a movie, like just evil for evils sake. And he's not really diagnosing where it actually comes from. He's not connecting the rise of fascism, to basic economic conditions in this country. And I've played this clip before. And I want to play it again real quick, because making that connection is what FDR did, in 1938. At a similar moment in history, when fascism was on the rise, listen to this quick clip from FDR listen to how different it is from what Biden said,

FDR 6:27
democracy has disappeared in several other great nations. This appeared not because the people of those nations disliked democracy, but because they had grown tired of unemployment and insecurity, of seeing that children hungry, while they sat helpless, in the face of government confusion, government weakness, weakness through lack of leadership, in government. Finally, in desperation, they chose to sacrifice liberty, in the hope of getting something to eat. We in America, know that our own democratic institutions can be preserved and made to work. But in order to preserve them, we need to act together to meet the problems of the nation boldly, and to prove that the practical operation of democratic government is equal to the task of protecting the security of the people.

David Sirota 7:31
So Biden isn't making that argument. And I think he needs to make that argument. Now. Producer Frank, I'll turn to you and say, Listen, there's been this argument that Biden was like wrong, the call out fascism, that he should be seeking national unity and that all he did was behave like some partisan and poke the right wing bear in this speech, and he shouldn't have done that. What what do you make of that? That argument?

Producer Frank 7:55
Oh, personally, I don't think he went far enough. I mean, in this entire speech, he didn't even say the word fascism. He just kept saying threat to democracy threat to democracy. Magga Republicans, yada, yada. He did mention fascism, just sort of offhandedly, a few weeks ago, when he I think that's what he called heat for when he called, you know, Magga, Republicans, semi fascists, but someone on his team clearly told him that for this big speech, you know, we're not going to say the F word, you know, we're not going to put it out there. It's too extreme. It's too much, which I think is ridiculous. You have to call it what it is. And like you said, he didn't connect it to economic conditions, and didn't really drive the point home in a in a in a way where the stakes felt as high as they actually are.

David Sirota 8:42
And my view is, if you were offended by Joe Biden's speech, if you're offended by criticism of fascists or semi fascist, it's like a good bit that you're a fascist, or your like, fascist adjacent, or at least fascist tolerant. Like I don't even get why this is a scandal or this is controversial, like a president being like, Hey, we should accept election results. And when they happen when they're certified, people who don't accept those things are authoritarian and fascist. Like why is this a controversy? I don't I don't really get what's so scandalous about what he did. I

Producer Frank 9:19
have no idea. I saw someone on the internet and I'm quoting here, but someone wrote, remember it's uncouth in polite society to call something fascism until it's absolutely too late to do anything about it. And I thought, I thought that that pretty well encapsulated this whole energy of this

David Sirota 9:35
guy. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Let's go to question two. Why is Joe Biden still crushing some student debtors? Last month, dark Brandon canceled a decent chunk of American student debt up to 20,000 bucks for Pell Grant recipients, which was great, but as the levers Julia rock reported dark Brandon's still Bill has a dark side on student debt. First, Biden's Department of Justice is still aggressively fighting some of the most indebted student debtors in bankruptcy court reminder, thanks to Biden's work during his time as a senator, student debt much harder to get rid of in bankruptcy court. During the 2020. Campaign, Biden endorsed the plan to fix this problem that he himself created. But his justice department is currently still going into court to try to overturn favorable rulings for student debtors. Meanwhile, during Joe Biden's speech announcing student debt cancellation, he said this about for profit colleges that are loading kids up with huge amounts of debt, listen to this.

Joe Biden 10:48
And one more big change we're making to the system is we're holding colleges accountable for jacking up cost without delivering value to students.

David Sirota 10:56
But here's the thing, as Julia also reported, Biden is refusing to reinstate a rule first created by the Obama Biden administration, but then repealed by Donald Trump, that would punish predatory schools that knowingly leave graduates with unmanageable debt or low earnings. He's delaying this rule, as some of these schools are spending millions on lobbying. So Julia, the question for you. Why is Joe Biden doing these two things? Is it bureaucratic incompetence? Is it deliberate? Is he just slow in making these reforms? Is he still doing the bidding of his lending industry donors? What do you think's going on here?

Julia Rock 11:41
You know, I think well, it's possible that it is, you know, bureaucratic incompetence, or slowness, like, okay, the administration is very busy. You know, that they can't completely, they can't issue every regulation they want to, right away. I'm not really sure I bought this, but it's not like

David Sirota 12:02
Joe Biden sitting at a desk writing the rules, right? I mean, he's got like, hundreds, if not 1000s, of people working for him. So it's not like he, you know, he writes a rule and then he's got Okay, listen, I can't write it, I got, you know, I gotta write the next rule. Right. So. So I guess I always come back to like, is the bureaucratic incompetence deliberate? Is there a method to the madness,

Julia Rock 12:23
and what I actually think it is, is what seems to be emblematic of dark Brandon, which is that he is willing and able to put some amount of government resources towards helping people. He, you know, at the end of the day did sign the inflation Reduction Act, which maybe is going to bring down energy costs and extend health insurance subsidies. But the theme with all of these things is that dark Brandon isn't taking on the corporate bad actors and industries that are causing these problems in the first place. And I think that's exactly what's going on with, you know, the the delaying the rule on for profit schools, which is there have been these big debt forgiveness programs, at some of these for profits that ripped off students, and yet those same schools remain eligible for the federal student loan program. So the students are having their debt wiped, and that's phenomenal. That should happen. But nothing has happened to the schools that defrauded them in the first place.

David Sirota 13:30
And that was what this rule is about. I kind of buried the lede here a little bit that the rule would essentially deny federal loans to, to these students at these schools that load kids up with debt without any serious effort to make sure that they get into jobs where they can repay the debt. The idea being that if you deny the federal loans that the schools will will be forced to essentially reform their predatory behavior. And I think you've identified something that may be the kryptonite for dark Brandon. Is that dark Brandon doesn't want to take on corporate power, like corporate power is the thing that melts dark Brandon's powers.

Producer Frank 14:17
One of our audience members can turn that into a meme. That would be perfect.

David Sirota 14:21
Yes. Like, like now we're going to we've moved from from Star Wars into Superman lore here. I want to I want to ask you one other question about Elizabeth Warren. Elizabeth Warren, senator from Massachusetts, who used to be dark Brandon's big enemy on bankruptcy stuff. She used to challenge dark brand and on bankruptcy stuff. Before she, I guess, became a giant fan of dark brand. And she recently weighed into the debate surrounding this issue. Like I feel like this is the old Elizabeth Warren challenging Joe Biden. What did she do? What is she demanding?

Julia Rock 14:59
Yeah, So as you mentioned, Biden's Justice Department is still fighting student debtors trying to have, you know, their debt eliminated or at least reduced through the bankruptcy process, which currently, you can't do with student debt. In Part. Thanks, as you said to Joe Biden, and Elizabeth Warren sent a letter last week now to Merrick Garland, the Attorney General, asking one why the Justice Department is still fighting these debtors, but to asking whether he has any intention of changing the policy of fighting student debtors in bankruptcy court, as the Justice Department has been saying it would do for months now. And I do think that is sort of an additional factor. And you know, what, why dark Brandon isn't. You know, solving these issues on student debt is that it's not, it might not just be dark Brandon, it might also be, I guess, darker light Merrick Garland, who has ties to the for profit college industry, the head of his civil division, previously had colleges for profit colleges as clients. So there are sort of deep ties in his administration.

David Sirota 16:18
Yeah. And by the way, dark Brandon's top aide, and Anita Dunn, she also worked on the campaign to try to stop these rules from originally being put into place I mean, needed done is one of dark Brandon's top people in in the Fortress of Solitude, the White House, obviously, I'm mixing all these went back to Superman. That was a Superman reference. So I mean, I definitely think there's this web of ties between the Biden administration, the sort of democratic led federal government and the industries that really don't want a crackdown in this area. I think that's, that's a really important part of your reporting. Okay, we're gonna turn now to question three. Will corporate Democrats win another congressional primary, the Democratic primary season has been marked by huge donors buying primary wins for corporate back to Democratic candidates in places like Ohio and New York candidates. progressive candidates were spent into the ground by billionaire donors and groups like AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. There have been some exceptions summer Lee, a candidate a progressive candidate in Pennsylvania, Jamie McLeod's Skinner in Oregon, those progressives were both able to overcome a de luz of big money and win their primaries. But look the trend the overall trend is clear. Now in one of the last primaries of the season happening in Rhode Island for an open congressional seat, a similar dynamic is playing out. The Democratic establishment has coalesced around State Treasurer Seth magaziner, the son of Bill Clinton's top aide, Ira Magaziner, against the field of candidates that includes progressive former State Representative David Siegel, who's campaigning on Medicare for All and a green New Deal. Sounds familiar, right? This is the same story that's played out in races all across the country. This week, the levers Matthew Cunningham cook reported a huge story that the local Rhode Island media hasn't really touched as treasurer magazine or moved huge amounts of the retirement savings of the state's teachers, firefighters and other government workers into high risk Wall Street investments, costing the state more than a half billion dollars in investment fees in exchange for crappy returns for those retirees who faced benefit cuts. Now here's the kicker magaziner in his congressional race is now raising big campaign cash from the finance industry. This has become a familiar story where politicians in control of retirees money, funnel it to Wall Street, which then funds their campaigns. The pensions have become a kind of ATM machine for these public officials. It's politicians equivalent of the Goodfellas relationship to the airport.

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 19:14
Whenever we needed money, we'd robbed the airport. To us it was better than Citibank.

David Sirota 19:20
Right? I mean, that's one of my favorite scenes in that movie. It's like they're using the pension funds as a kind of ATM machine to ingratiate themselves with the finance industry. Okay, so Matthew, the big question here is why does this pension scam keep happening? And why don't voters seem to punish candidates who funnel state money to Wall Street and not get good returns for retirees?

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 19:49
I think there's a lot of general discomfort around money in our society. You know, our schools don't teach it. And there's a lot of obfuscation about it and And the fact is, is that magaziner has been able to raise huge sums of money relative to his opponents been able to rack up support from the Democratic Party establishment and the lead, in my view, because of his actions, he's taken as State Treasurer to increase the risk in the pension fund to increase the fees and to have worse performance relative to the stock and bond markets.

Producer Frank 20:27
Matthew, what is the state of this congressional race right now? Please, please tell me that the son of Bill Clinton's aide who has received over $200,000, and finance industry money is not doing well, right now. Please tell

David Sirota 20:40
me that's what's happened. Please tell me. I'm hoping that's gonna be the answer, Matthew,

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 20:43
he has a huge lead in the polls. But I mean, there's limited amount of polls, and Rhode Island has elected a bunch of great progressives, mostly at the state legislative level, over the last few years, so you know, friend of the pod, David Siegel, might point out might pull out a win. But on the whole, what you see is that magazine honors full support of the Democratic Party establishment is very difficult for anybody who is not him to, to run against it. In fact, there's another establishment candidate who's raised plenty of money, and she hasn't caught fire, either. It's it there's there's full on Democratic Party elite support for magaziner.

David Sirota 21:30
I feel like this is one of those primaries, by the way, that's just one of these, frankly, northeast urban Democratic primaries where the the Democratic machine has even more power than it typically does. I mean, Rhode Island has a kind of very old school, kind of corrupt Democratic machine. The progressives have been challenging at this at the state and local level. But at the congressional level, that machine is still super powerful. Now, one last question on this particular race. If magaziner does win the primary, this is actually a swing district that Republicans think they can pick up. Is there any chance that they're going to use some of this stuff that is out there about magaziner, about his management of the pension fund, that the Republicans will use that kind of stuff against him in the general election, imperiling Democrats ability to actually win the seat and retain control of the US House in general?

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 22:30
I think that's a real risk. I think that what we know about Republicans is they'll come up with any reason to smear Democrats, rightly or wrongly. But in this case, there's a wealth of information about magaziner performance that should raise real questions about his overall ability to win this seat. And what you see is when when sunlight is applied to people who control pension funds, their popularity goes down, we saw that with Chris Christie. We saw that with Beth Pierce, the state treasurer of Vermont who didn't run again. We see it in a lot of situations that that their investment decisions become an albatross around their neck, that Republicans or or their opponents generally can exploit. Yeah, and

David Sirota 23:24
I feel like Republicans in a place like Rhode Island want to run on kind of an anti anti corruption message. That's the way that Republicans can sometimes win in these blue states in the Northeast run against the sort of, they call it the corrupt Democratic machine. So I think that if magaziner ends up winning this primary, the Republicans will think they have a shot. I mean, there was a tweet from the NRA CC already the National Republican Congressional Campaign Committee, already citing this kind of telegraphing where they're going to try to go in this race. Matthew, great reporting on this race. Thanks so much.

Matthew Cunningham-Cook 23:59
Thanks so much, guys. Really appreciate it.

David Sirota 24:01
Okay, Matthew is going to take off but Julia and Frank are going to stick around for our next segment. But first we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with their coverage of the Amazon labor union and the Starbucks workers united Union's Labor Day March in New York City. Welcome back to labor time. This past Monday was Labor Day here in the United States, the day in which we recognize and celebrate the achievements of the early 20th century labor movement. Now, of course, it's 2022. And after more than 40 years of neoliberal free market policies that have almost entirely wiped away the victories of that labor movement, we're finally starting to see a new American labor movement emerge. At the cultural forefront of that new movement is the Amazon labor union and Starbucks workers united. Well, the Al use successfully won the first union drive and an Amazon warehouse in Staten Island. And while the Starbucks union has seen over 200 20 different stores organize, Amazon and Starbucks, the companies are still doing everything within their power to deny these unions, their first contracts through legal challenges. And by simply dragging their feet, though, here's a bit of good news. Just this past week, the National Labor Relations Board, the federal agency that oversees the labor situation, that board officially dismissed Amazon's complaints that the ACLU had illegally organized its warehouse. Amazon can still appeal this decision. But it's an important step in bringing Amazon to the bargaining table for a contract between the company and the Union. But both unions are keeping the pressure on so this past Monday, they organized a joint solidarity March in New York City on Labor Day, the levers Julia rock and producer Frank, we're on the ground at the March talking with organizers and attendees.

Frank Julio, you both went to the March this past Monday, how was it? What was your general takeaway? What was it like?

Producer Frank 26:17
Generally, it was great. It was it was really awesome. The the vibes were very positive. As you mentioned, it was a solidarity March. So people were just, they were generally genuinely there to support these unions. And they had a really cool strategy and route that they took. So they started outside of Howard Schultz his penthouse. He's the CEO of Starbucks, in the West Village, then then we moved to Jeff Bezos, his penthouse next to Madison Square Park. And then we ended in Times Square on the TKTS steps. So yeah, it was it was very cool to witness it firsthand.

David Sirota 27:16
So Chris smalls, the president of the Amazon labor union, who's been on this podcast, he was leading the march, right. I mean, he was the guy at the at the head of the march. Yeah, he was, he was certainly

Julia Rock 27:26
the focal point of the entire event. And it was striking for me just, you know, to follow him around for a couple of hours. And I think there has been a lot of, you know, sort of reporting from publications like New York Magazine saying, like, oh, is the theme getting to Chris smalls is head like, you know, is he really the legitimate leader of this, this independent union movement, whatever. And, you know, if you're, you're up close to him, or watching him lead a march or protest, it's so clear why he has become the LEADER he's become. He's just unbelievably charismatic, good at reading the crowd. You know, meeting lots of people shaking hands. It was it was a pretty remarkable thing to witness. We need

David Sirota 28:15
labor, labor leaders in this country who have that kind of charisma. I mean, we really, we really do. I mean, I, I feel like that era existed probably 7080 90 years ago, where you had kind of larger than life, labor, labor leaders. And there was John L. Lewis. As one example, John L. Lewis was the leader of the mineworkers. And it was kind of this larger than life figure. I feel like that, that the labor movement hasn't had that for a long time, right?

Producer Frank 28:45
Yeah. And there, there was a moment where we were walking along and I was like, Am I walking next to like our generations, Eugene Debs right now? Like, like, legitimately, you know, and Julie and I had that conversation about how, you know, as soon as anyone in on the left becomes famous, sometimes the left will turn on them. But we were like, No, this this is a real ass dude that like this is just a guy who has found himself in his place. And he's very good at articulating a strong Working Class Message.

Chris Smalls 29:14
Organizing, real grassroots, non traditional, old school, new generation of organizing. That's what it's gonna take to get these companies to the table. Obviously, put decades, we all know and it's chemistry, unions, labor, organized labor, it's been on a decline because of the billions and trillions of dollars of corporation money and propaganda and misinformation out there. For the last 40 years. We got to remind them every single damn time who runs their operations is the word So I'm hoping an hour he's been spreading to see that one day. We all from all the industries that are here today, we all get on the same accord. The same time. We all have our stripes.

David Sirota 30:21
Okay, so who else did you both get to talk to you while you were there.

Producer Frank 30:25
So we got a chance to talk to a bunch of union members, some organizers and attendees. First, I spoke with a Starbucks worker who was actually fired from a store in Great Neck Long Island, or her name is Jocelyn Tookie onkey. Jocelyn had been fired from her store last year for what she claimed was retaliation. Why don't you work at the great next Starbucks and La La Long Island anymore?

Joselyn Chuquillanqui 30:46
I was fired and what I believe is for unionizing the store or attempting to unionize the store,

Producer Frank 30:53
got it and was that a store that successful unionized or you're still still organizing?

Joselyn Chuquillanqui 30:58
Unfortunately, after intense union busting, we lost our vote five to six. This is after 100% of people who worked in our location, signed union cards, everyone was on board and then our management started union busting to such an extreme point where that people are really afraid to form a union.

Producer Frank 31:15
And if you had something to say to Howard Schultz right now, what would you say?

Joselyn Chuquillanqui 31:19
Recognize the union soft union busting within your stores, and hire lobbyists rehire all of the unjustly and illegally fired, baristas. We deserve our jobs, and they deserve to be our voices to be heard.

Julia Rock 31:34
We also spoke to Isaiah Brooks, who is one of the lead organizers from Amazon's ldj Five warehouse, which was the second warehouse in Staten Island that held a Union Election with the Amazon labor union, although the failed

Producer Frank 31:49
so what what was your impression as a worker, worker organizer inside that store? What, what what went wrong? What Why didn't that vote succeed? In your opinion,

Isaiah Brooks 31:59
the misinformation that was given by the employer was given at a faster rate than we were able to put out the proper information in the turnaround from the election from JFK. What what, what Amazon learned from losing at JFK, eight, they did a little different when they got to ldj. Five, and that turnaround for us was too quick for us to be able to combat that in that time.

Producer Frank 32:27
And what are the conditions inside of your warehouse right now? Are you guys feeling positive? Are you feeling a little like, beaten down right now? Does the ebb and flow,

Isaiah Brooks 32:37
I guess, for us as the union people starting to gravitate more towards and feeling like, you know, this is we are, who the union is, and not that the union is a different entity, like how the employer tried to spin it before. And so while Amazon is still Amazon, the people are like, we're more community now. We're more of a community, we're more together. A lot of the people that voted no before have since took shots on the chin from Amazon. And now they see what we were saying. So for Amazon, maybe not so good, because that'd be good.

Producer Frank 33:19
I'd love to hear that. And if you had one message for Jeff Bezos, what would it be?

Isaiah Brooks 33:25
Wake up recognise that we're not gonna go anywhere. We just want equal rights want to be treated fairly? We don't want to be treated like numbers. Cheetahs, like people don't hide behind the laws when some of the laws stop people from being human.

Producer Frank 33:40
I'd say the attendance of the marches probably around two to 300 people Giulia Does that sound about right? I'm not good at guesstimating. But

Julia Rock 33:46
well, it was a bit tough, because, you know, we were in the streets of New York City. And I think onlookers at different points joined in, but 200 300 Sounds right. And

Producer Frank 33:54
that includes a bunch of just like rank and file union members from other unions who were there in solidarity. We actually spoke to one woman who is a first grade teacher here in New York. Her name is Rachel guagua. And she is a member of the United Federation of Teachers, which is the teachers union. And what brought you here today,

Rachel Paguaga 34:12
um, basically, its solidarity man, I think that as somebody who is positioned to be in a very strong union, it's important for us to come out and help, you know, people who are trying to be part of the labor movement in large ways get recognized, you know, we are in a very privileged position as people who have a strong union and I want that for every worker.

Producer Frank 34:32
And what has this new labor movement this like, that's being spearheaded by Amazon, Starbucks, all of these service workers. What is this meant to you at this at this time in our nation's history?

Rachel Paguaga 34:45
That is a gigantic question. I want a very comprehensive answer. Exactly. You're gonna get really detailed and essay T 's level essay. I think that it's the reckoning of that workers have more power that I think we've realized, for people All who are, who have felt really complacent or haven't felt like their voices have been heard there, there has been like very obvious actionable things that have gone on to say, hey, it's not just them that can do it, but we can do it as well. So it's just a reckoning of to the bosses that like, hey, people are recognizing your bullshit is bullshit, and we're not going to fucking take it anymore.

Producer Frank 35:20
perfectly, perfectly put the teacher from the teacher, it's Labor Day. What is Labor Day mean to you on this day? Oh, man,

Rachel Paguaga 35:29
it means a lot. I think that it's just kind of a reminder of what's been fought before. You know what I mean, that like a lot of things that we take for granted in terms of like conditions that we do have in the workplace and our ability to have weekends, you know, things that are very often overlooked. It's just kind of a reminder of where we came from and where we still have to go.

Julia Rock 35:49
I also had a chance to catch up with Seth Goldstein, who is the Amazon labor unions, pro bono attorney who has been helping them with their National Labor Relations Board, unfair labor practices cases, when the NLRB forces Amazon to recognize the union, Amazon is going to try to appeal it. Is that sort of the concern right now?

Seth Goldstein 36:10
Of course it is they lost the objection hearing. But that's not going to stop them from delaying and trying to get into federal court, where they hope that a right wing court will throw out the election and possibly overturn the National Labor Relations Act I'm very concerned about it's a backdoor to the Lochner type of case.

Julia Rock 36:31
And you were just starting to tell me about someone who had recently been fired. What's the situation with him?

Seth Goldstein 36:39
We have a employee in Albany that was fired for allegedly kicking an empty box. And it was a violation of the workplace. Violence Prevention, however, however, he never had a disciplinary action. And he was always asking questions about safety and trying to make things fair for everybody. So he's in a terrible situation because he's on cancer medication. And I'm afraid that his life is in danger, because Amazon has cut off his health insurance, which is despicable.

David Sirota 37:15
Okay, so this was a big march in the heart of New York City. One question that came to mind, my political mind is, were there any elected officials, they're showing their support,

Producer Frank 37:26
not technically elected, but at one point, I did interrupt a bunch of alphabet union members, cuz I was trying to talk to them for an interview. And they all turned at me like looking at me, like, what are you doing talking to us right now? And I realized I interrupted them talking to Marianne Williamson. Yeah, so as to be like, I'm so sorry, Marianne Williamson continue. But we did

Julia Rock 37:47
get a chance to speak with Tiffany Gabon, who's in New York City Council member representing District 22 in Queens. And she talked to us about how elected officials specifically at the city level can support workers in their organizing efforts,

Tiffany Cabán 38:01
you're in the middle of a movement of just the biggest, fastest growing unionization drives around the country. And this is certainly like the center of it right here in New York City. And then you have folks like Jeff Bezos, you know, like, kind of trying to sell a narrative that this isn't happening. So it's really important to come together to be super visible to say it is happening, we're building power, and then the cross union. Solidarity is really huge, because you have sectors that are unionizing for the first time out here, like Amazon labor union, like Starbucks, with what we call, right or the institutional labor, RW DSU, UAW and other folks coming together. The momentum is palpable, it's really important. And I mean, I can say, as a city legislator, right, that we see this and we understand that it's, it's a mandate that we need to be a pro worker, pro Union City and legislate that way. And so certainly, those are the things that we're thinking about when we're introducing legislation trying to pass it. So I've actually in the next few months, going to be introducing a couple of pieces of legislation that I am very excited about that should you know help, right, like the point is also to put more tools in a workers toolboxes to expand their capacity and create systems of accountability when bosses and corporations union bust right, giving people the ability to unionize and build power and set the conditions of their workplace. But you even look at the last city council that passed the the just just cause employment for fast food workers, right, the fast food sector making it so that you know a lot of people don't really even know that you you can get fired for no reason at all, and simply creating a mechanism where employers have to tell you why that there's, you know, a system that they have to show that you did something wrong with and provided adequate training, training, giving you the opportunity to improve your performance that they can't, you know, the equivalent of firing you by lowering your hours so much that you're forced to leave. These are things that the city can legislate around. And we can expand that across sectors to protect the most vulnerable workers, right, which are immigrant and low wage workers. And obviously, you know, immigrant workers can't join unions. And so then it's for our legislators to step up that much more and say, Well, we're going to protect this, this particular vulnerable sector of workers as as well, we just saw the city for the first time is suing Starbucks for, you know, an unlawful firing at a Starbucks in my neighborhood, because there are two that are unionizing. So these are proactive steps that the city can can make to again, like support workers and make sure that you know, New York is living up to its its monitor of being a union town.

David Sirota 40:44
So you guys go from Howard Schultz his penthouse to Jeff Bezos, his penthouse to Times Square. What did the scene in Times Square look like?

Producer Frank 40:54
Oh, it was, it was so dope. Truly, we, we got to walk up Broadway, through traffic, stopping traffic all the way in the heart of Times Square. And then they chose to land the whole thing on the TKTS steps, which if you don't know, Are these like iconic, red steps in the middle of Times Square, where, you know, tourists can just kind of like sit and chill for a little bit. So they went up so that Chris had a nice elevated place to talk from. And Julie and I were we were, we were like, We got to be at the front. And we get to this we'd get to Time Square. So we were up on the steps near them. And we got to like, look out on the Time Square and see like all of these people and just like and it's Labor Day, there's Taurus, there's, they didn't know that this march was supposed to be happening. And just to see the amount of people this crowd that was watching all of these union people speak it was really it was really cool to see it.

Julia Rock 41:46
And, you know, for those in the audience who haven't been to Times Square, it's like the worst place in America. It's just packed with people. There are TV screens on all the buildings flashing brightly colored advertisements. It smells horrible. It's loud. So there was something really amazing about having this union March sort of permeate this disgusting what smalls referred to as the heart of American capitalism. I might question that characterization, but it was a really remarkable place to bring them marched

Producer Frank 42:25
to and so from there, that's where the the final round of speeches started.

Julia Rock 42:31
We heard from a woman named Christina dava, a special ed teacher from the Bronx and also a member of the United Federation of Teachers who spoke about the conditions at her school and Mayor Eric Adams is attack on the public schools.

Christina Dava 42:47
Amazon labor union Starbuck workers unit by caucus, educators of the US with all workers, one you I also wanted to share with you that New York City, public schools are under attack by bear on.

Funding public school, at least $469 billion dollars of money that is not New York City Money, money that is state and federal money that was given to New York City specifically for school for COVID recovery. He is cutting every municipal budget, I suffer the police. Also another thing, all the city unions are coming up for contract, UFC, our contract ends on September 13. We have not had a single contract negotiating team meeting. I know because I'm on the team. But there is sitting everybody's contracts out to let everybody expire so that we're basically

Producer Frank 43:57
and then one of the speakers who I thought had one of the strongest messages of the day was this, this guy named David Galarza, from CSEA local 1000. He's a Puerto Rican American union member. Speaking about the conditions in Puerto Rico and just a heads up for our listeners there. There's a little bit of cursing in this next bit.

David Galarza 44:18
Shit, because it's the colony that shit is manufactured right here in this country. Colony. So five years ago, Donald Trump let over 5000 Puerto Ricans die after the hurricane

after the hard working Union men and women of the UDL which is the Electrical Workers Union now wants to bring electricity

abysmal condition imposed. And yes, when Chris says we got a hold the unit accountable, it is shameful, shameful that the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers went to Puerto Rico to break the local independent unit. Back to your waters, bring them back to your unit. You fucking break a union, especially another unit because you're in Boston

Julia Rock 45:47
and then Chris smalls finished out with his closing remarks.

Chris Smalls 45:51
You got a whole bunch of unions here today. A whole bunch of working class people here today. A whole bunch of community members here today organizations thank you once again for coming out on this hot labor summer day.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Take our day our time. Write every single

Chris Smalls 46:25
and we got to remind them that they'll ever give up don't ever quit. I entered award

David Sirota 46:38
Okay, and what about Chris? Did you did you both get a chance to talk to

Producer Frank 46:41
him? Yes, we did. But it was near impossible. He got absolutely mobbed at the at the end of the speeches. And I just got to say, you know, I we've got to support independent media. But if you're gonna show up at these things, don't ask Chris Smalls. What does organizing mean? Like you're just wasting your time is time all of our time.

Julia Rock 47:01
But but we did grab him before he had to leave and got a couple of questions in Chris, you

Producer Frank 47:06
put on a hell of a show today. How do you feel right now? He's like,

Chris Smalls 47:08
exhausted, I'm tired. I'm drained. But it was great. You know, I put all my energy and Blood Sweat Tears into this every day. So it's just another day for him.

Producer Frank 47:18
How are you feeling about the upcoming union drive at the Alberni store? Yeah,

Chris Smalls 47:23
I'm very, I'm very, very excited about it. Because you know that the workers are moving that they're resilient. You know, while in upstate New York in a very tough County. It just proves that the unions and the union efforts are reaching the mass. Last

Producer Frank 47:40
question general strike 2024 What's going on?

Chris Smalls 47:43
I'm calling for you know, as a union president, I'm taking the stance, and I think that we all should do it.

Producer Frank 47:49
Are you guys gonna get ready in the note over the next couple years,

Chris Smalls 47:51
we're gonna get ready. Now.

David Sirota 47:53
Listen, thanks to both of you for covering this taking part of your labor day weekend to cover this. It's a really important story. We're going to continue covering it here at the lever, the rise of a new American labor movement. Let's hope that that continues to rise. Thanks to both of you for your work.

Producer Frank 48:09
Absolutely. It was so much fun.

Julia Rock 48:10
Yeah, I had a great time.

David Sirota 48:32
Okay, now we're a bonus segment just for our paid subscribers. This week, we're going to be sharing my interview with Aidan Hirsch, the author of a new book called politics is for power, how to move beyond political hobby ism, take action and make real change. I spoke with a ton about the concept of political hobby ism, and what it would actually take to activate the politically inactive and organized for real power rather than just looking at politics as a spectator sport. Thanks again for being a supporting subscriber and for funding the work we do here at the lever. Now, here's that bonus segment. Hey, Tom, thanks for joining us.

Eitan Hersh 49:11
Thank you for having me.

David Sirota 49:12
Political hobby ism. It's a topic that I am kind of obsessed with. You have a book that's all about the idea of political engagement as distinct from political hobby ism. So before we get into all of your findings, why don't we just define what the difference in your mind is? The difference between political engagement real civic engagement and political hobby ism?

Eitan Hersh 49:39
Sure. I mean, I think in in a word, the difference is whether you have a goal or strategy or not, right. So we know that people are spending an hour or two hours a day with their brains focused on politics, but almost all of them like 95% of them are doing some combination of just like learning facts or posting stuff being like an amateur pundit, or, you know, talking out loud worrying about things and our politics, sometimes doing things like posting things or signing online petitions, but they have no particular goal or strategy for achieving that goal. They're not doing any kind of organized politics. They're not working with other people to try to get some policy passed or get some politician elected. And so when I coined the term political hobby, as if it just is like a catch all for all the other stuff, that's politics, but not in a goal oriented or power seeking way,

David Sirota 50:32
I mean, there's a stat that's kind of mind blowing that you uncovered in 2016, a record number of people said they were very interested in the presidential election 49%, according to the National Election study, more than any year since the question was first asked. But when it came to actually working for a campaign, or a party organization, or attending meetings, or rallies, the number who reported working for a campaign or doing any of that was just below the historical average. So it seems like we're in a in a moment, in an era where people really are keyed in to what's going on in politics, but aren't necessarily more engaged in politics than they have been in the past. So then that raises the question, well, what's wrong with that? Why is that a problem? Why is that bad?

Eitan Hersh 51:24
Right? So that's right, you have this huge number of people that are spending an hour or two a day in politics, but most of them don't belong to any organizations, they have never, you know, in the last year never attended a meeting of any kind. When, you know, we asked on surveys, like, have you ever worked with other people to try to solve a problem? They say, No, the majority of people, not just in the whole country, but of those who are spending all that time in political consumption. Okay, so the first problem is, I mean, if you are of the view that there's a lot of things that kind of could do some fixing, you might just think, like, wow, this is a huge waste of people's time. That's, that's probably number one, right. And number two is, in the book, I argue that it's actually making people behave badly. So when you're in the mode of political hobbies, you're not developing the right skill set to persuade anyone of anything. To learn the right information, like you're not focused on all of the local political news, you're not focused on? How do you build a relationship with someone on the other side of the issue to try to do something together, you're just doing that you're like practicing the entirely wrong skill set for actually getting anything done. So I feel like people who come from the world of political hobbies needs to like serious detox before they can actually do anything useful in the world. But there's another argument, which is that we also when we do political hobbies, and we incentivize politicians to behave badly, right, so the, the big example I use in the book is about fundraising. So a lot of low dollar fundraising campaigns are focused on getting people angry, getting people worked up, and then it gives, you know, they give $5 donations and, and those $5 donations tried tend to drive candidates on the, on the extremes, who, who, you know, thrive by working people up and you know, if candidates across the board are incentivized to kind of behave badly in a way that's going to attract $5 donations is probably bad for the system.

David Sirota 53:23
Yeah. And I would, I would say, it's not the sort of ideological extremes. It's, if you could tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I think it's more the extremes in terms of spectacle, right? Politics as spectacle, spectacle as fundraising, politics, not as actually necessarily getting things done, like who can win mill dunk on this, or that politician, or this or that opponent raises more money off of the spectacle doesn't necessarily raise more money off of getting a bill done, or doesn't necessarily raise more money by having a good solution to an actual problem in the world? That's right. So then my question is, is this a new phenomenon? Has this always been the case? Is this a product of the Instagram ification of politics, social media and the like? Is that what this is about as a cable TV news? I mean, where do you see the origins of this coming from?

Eitan Hersh 54:22
Yeah, so I mean, obviously, there's like these long term trends in civic decline, right, that we've know been going on for like 70 years, like the Bowling Alone phenomenon, the Bowling Alone story, and I think what the internet has done to that story is, it's really given a place for people to feel like they're plugging in in a shallow way that makes them feel like they don't need to plug in in a deep way. Right. So like if I feel I can feel more connected by expressing my dumb heartache on social media than I could in an era where I was just like watching TV at home, that makes me feel like slightly connected to People, I get those benefit of getting people late to like my posts. And that really makes me not feel like I need to, to be in community. But you know, in addition to the Civic kind, there's a parallel religious decline. So people are just unaccustomed to being in community and solving problems together. So there's that story. You know, there's the story of media toward nationalization, which is like a sort of a separate story, which is that, as the change in media happened, the change in where we get our news and how and how we think about news changes, so people know, like less than ever, about what's going on at the state local level, their attention to news is entirely focused basically on the national level. And so that also makes things more of a spectacle, right. So if, you know the, if you're a Democrat, and you and you live in where I live in Massachusetts, you know, it might be that the Republican you have in mind is like Ted Cruz, because he's the Republican like that's in the in your mind's eye of like a national Republican, even though, for solving a lot of the problems that are closer to home, the Republican you should have in mind is like, the liberal governor of Massachusetts, Charlie Baker, or like the Republican who's just the person who lives in your building or down the block. And so the nationalization story makes it so like, the person on the other side from you feels like a caricature, who you're never going to come to agree with on anything, versus the person down your hallway, who you probably actually agree on a lot of stuff.

David Sirota 56:29
I'm very frustrated, frankly, by political hobby ism among liberals, and also on as distinct from liberals also, on the so called left, although I'm not I've said this before, I'll say it again, I'm not really exactly sure anymore, what the left is. But I definitely feel like there is more interaction on social media, with more and more intense takes about political tactics, about political strategy. I've been, for instance, frustrated with this idea that apparently, there's, I think there's a genre of political hobby ism that demonizes anybody working inside the Democratic Party and sort of the unglamorous parts of Democratic Party politics. To try to improve that party. There's a kind of hobbyist take that says, anybody who's working on the nuts and bolts of Democratic Party policy and, and Democratic Party, organizing to try to make the party better is a sellout. Because you're not working outside of the party for a third party or an alternative party. And it feels like a lot of that critique is happening from people who aren't necessarily doing the actual work of building a third party. They're just commenting on social media. Now, I want to be clear, I'm, I'm all for kind of a Labor Party organizing outside the Democratic Party. I'm all for people doing the unglamorous work inside the Democratic Party to improve that party. But I guess my point is, I feel like a lot of the commentary is about what should be done, and not necessarily using that time to actually do the thing. So I'm very frustrated by this. But I would ask you, is this Do you think this is a particular problem on the Democratic side? Or the left side of politics? Or does it does it? Is it equally a problem on both sides? I mean, is this the same kind of problem on the Republican side? Or is it more acutely focused on the so called the left of center of the political spectrum?

Eitan Hersh 58:33
Yeah, so I prefer to answer the left versus right question. I'll just say like, you know, I think what you're sensing is, is real. There's this organizer who I talked to, and I just, I just talked about him and writing, who had this profound insight, which is that he said he is an organizer, but most of his friends are basically hobbyist and he said that most of them don't want to actually be engaged in politics, because they think that their beliefs are self evidently correct. And if they had to convince anyone of anything, that would mean that their positions are not self evidently correct, because they would need to give it to someone and they don't like that idea. And I think you have this kind of purist mentality on both political sides of the party, that both political sides that's sort of like that, which is like, you know, I can't be, I can't be dirtying myself with politics, because it would be a compromise to my values. Which is, I think, kind of insane. But I also I mean, you know, I, my politics are, I think quite different from yours, David. What I would say is that, I find through my own personal experience of being involved in organized politics and experience of talking to people, I think it's a moderating activity. That is I think, when you're constantly having to build power for the things you care about, talk to people you need to convince of something. Try to get something done in local politics, a politics you're Life just becomes full of a lot of gray area and nuance. And you're meeting people who are like, you know, you have to see where they're coming from. And all that I find is it's quite moderating, which, which I think is positive, because I think this kind of purist mentality is, is that it's very bad for the country, actually, in terms of left versus right. What I would say is,

David Sirota 1:00:21
I frankly, I just want to interrupt you here, but I don't disagree with you. I think we may disagree on what the term moderating means. I prefer I prefer the term centering. And by that I mean, in doing actual politics, whether it's on campaigns, whether it's working to lobby, a legislature, whether I mean, I watched my wife in the Colorado State Legislature, by centering I mean, it gets you to where the actual mainstream of the electorate is. And I think on some things, the mainstream of the electorate is much different than where the corporate media debate is about what is quote, unquote, mainstream. I mean, you talk about an issue like minimum wage, it's considered still a kind of a raising the minimum wage is still considered kind of in the media debate, a controversial idea. And sure, there are some opponents to it. But when you actually go out and talk about it, and even with small businesses, big businesses, all sorts of different parts of the political spectrum, it's actually it's actually a very mainstream kind of idea. And so I guess all I'm saying is, I don't know if I would use that term, moderate in the way it's defined in the media. I think it's centered, it connects you to where people actually are.

Eitan Hersh 1:01:31
Yeah, I think it's right. I mean, I just, I just came back last week from three days in Mississippi, and I was meeting with political and business leaders there, most of whom were Republicans and quite concerned Republicans. But it was fascinating that, you know, they're thinking about how to bring industry into their community. And they're focused on all the same stuff that the liberals in Massachusetts are focused on, they're focused on, you know, childcare centers and rural transit, and they're focused on housing affordability. And you know, and then they'll say, like, you know, as an aside, like, why don't you know, in this area of Mississippi, we already have universal free community college, just like all of Tennessee has. And I was like, what these places already? We don't have that in Massachusetts. And if someone said, if someone said, what party or who do you think would promote universal community college? Right? You would think that's a sort of like, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren kind of thing. But it's coming from the mouth of, you know, conservative Republicans, but for their communities, it makes a hell of a lot of sense, because they're bringing in industries that really need folks to be able to, like, you know, manipulate an Excel table, and that's that, you know, anyway, so you meet with people like that, and it's like, yeah, we're actually, uh, you know, people across the country have a lot more in common than you might think. And without those real conversations, if you just demonize those people who are different from you, you're never going to feel that. And that's a very positive feeling.

David Sirota 1:02:54
Yes, I mean, I agree, local and state politics are about it's in so much of it, not to idealize them, but they're about getting from point A to point B. Now, it's not to say that ideology doesn't play a point up, doesn't have a role in that, or a viewpoint doesn't have a role in that. But I completely agree. And I think what's frustrating to folks who are doing politics, is they're trying to get from point A to point B. And there's sort of even more hobbyist commentary around it, that doesn't necessarily take into account the sort of basic realities of getting from point A to point B. Now, I'm not demonizing folks who have very strong, well grounded fact based ideological opinions. That's not what I'm doing. But I just, I, when I read your work, it just really spoke to me, as somebody, you know, I've worked in, you know, day to day local state campaigns, I, you know, I've made mistakes I've done, we've won, we've lost, but I just I always have in my mind and all the work that I do, just how complicated and nuanced that work can be. And that term hobby ism, I think totally nails it. So then the follow up question is, how do we get out of it? How do we turn more hobbyists into, for lack of a better term, engaged citizens in the actual doing of politics, the doing of getting things done for their communities?

Eitan Hersh 1:04:34
You know, I think my answer to that so far has been to try to share with people that that sort of like the beauty of being a real community member in the book, I share the stories of seven or so organizers who let me let me actually preface this by saying like, I don't have an activist mentality myself like I usually don't want to be caught dead anywhere near a protest this this doesn't feel Like, who am I, and before I wrote the book, I kind of had, I don't know, I guess I wouldn't have said I have like, had a lot in common with political organizers. And then once I spent a lot of time with people around the country who were doing this work, I actually realized I had a very close affinity towards their work, because they're really community people. They're like, they're not just serving a political goal. They're, they're building a community, they're taking care of one another. They're, they're engaging in this way that's like, very, very deep and beautiful. And it felt, for me connected to the kinds of communities that I'm most familiar with, there's the religious communities, where, you know, people know each other in a neighborhood and see each other regularly and take care of each other. And there's, in this sort of era of social media, it's also a letter of extreme loneliness, and depression. And you know, when you see what's going on, in real life in these communities, they're not only serving a political goal that a lot of people might care about. And they're weighing in on big national issues in a local way, right? They're weighing in on education, equity, and policing, and, and affordable housing, all these things, but in their own way, and they're doing it with this community. And it's awesome. And I guess, that I try to convey to readers or students is like, it's, it's a great way to live to be involved in the community. And, you know, I don't know what else to say no to it than that, like, look at these people who I'm writing about. They're amazing.

David Sirota 1:06:25
I completely agree. And your point about getting, I guess, psychological and spiritual sustenance, from political engagement, I cannot underscore enough, one of the every campaign that I've worked on, especially the state and local campaigns have been the best experiences in my working life, because of the community engagement aspect. Because of that solidarity. I mean, when we had scores of volunteers, at our house, to do phone banking, to be the headquarters of a door knocking operation, the friendships, you forged, the solidarity that you forge, there's really nothing like it. I mean, there really isn't, it's some of the best experiences you can have. So my final question to you on all of this is, is there any indication in any of your data in any of your research, that younger generations, millennials, Gen Z, et cetera, et cetera, are becoming more active in the kind of face to face political organizing, as distinct from Hobby ism? Is there any indication that the next generation gets it? And if there is, it would be fascinating, because that's the those are the generations that are most immersed in a lot of ways, or at least most brought up? Immersed in the social media era?

Eitan Hersh 1:07:51
Yeah, so I would say like, you know, there's a few trends going against there against that trend, right? There's a few reasons why we think like, no, the younger generations are gonna have a harder time than anyone plugging into real communities. One is the mobility rates, the lack of ability to afford a house and settle down delayed marriage and, and family. So that like the note, you know, it's like, you're we're not in a world where you're getting married at 22, and having kids and you're buying a house. And so you're like getting involved in your community. For a lot of young people, that stuff is a decade or more in their future. And so it's very hard for folks to kind of settle into community when they're moving every 18 months, and they don't have like a stable, you know, they're not going to buy a house or an apartment, they don't have a kind of stable existence. Plus, of course, like the least religious generation of all time. So it's not like many people, as many people are comfortable in those settings, I would say that the two more optimistic angles for young people in terms of their engagement are, in a couple of instances, we've seen communities start to organize around around real issues that and they can see impact start to finish. I mean, in many communities, the time it took from a George Floyd protests to actual substantive changes in their own police department, where they live, was in the scheme of political change very quick. And anyone who had an experience of of working on those issues and dealing with community resistance and felt blowback and the whole thing probably learned a lot from that experience. So there could be formative experiences. That's one. Obviously we have some uptick in, in labor organizing. And I think that's also potential to draw people in. And the last thing I'll say is, I'm writing my next book on the Civic role of businesses in part because what's happening in the business world and with employees in large businesses is something that's very unusual historically, where you have a lot of employees who are entering the workforce and They maybe because they don't have like another civic or religious outlet. They're looking toward their company to be engaged in politics. And by the way, I have said, I listened to one of your episodes before coming out which about Citizens United. And I really disagree with actually with most of the episode but one of the one of the one of the I think that's to like be rude as I guess I'm hoping not to come across rude. But I think one of the things that people really are grappling with now is what does corporate speech mean, in an era where you have companies with big engaged workforces that actually want their company to be a voice in the public square on a lot of issues where the status quo is kind of being changed from underneath them? And so I think, you know, in addition to sort of grassroots organizing and union organizing, you also have something going on in people's work life that is really different from anything before. And I think we you know, it's still sort of an unknown future about what that looks like. Thank you for

David Sirota 1:10:58
the writing on what a hobbyist is versus what engagement is. It's a very helpful way, I think, for people to think through the difference between paying attention and getting involved. And I for one hope that more especially in this year or more people who are political hobbyists become politically engaged a town house. Thanks so much.

Eitan Hersh 1:11:24
My pleasure. Thanks. Yeah.

David Sirota 1:11:27
That's it for today's show. Thanks a ton for being a paid subscriber to the lever. It's really true. We could not do this work without. If you particularly liked this episode, please pitch into our tip jar. The tip jar link is in the episodes description, or over at lever news.com/tip jar. Every little bit helps us do this kind of journalism. One last favor. If you like this podcast and our reporting. Please tell your friends and family about the lever and about the work that we're doing here. Forward them our email, tell them to subscribe at lever news.com The only way independent non corporate media grows is by word of mouth. So we need all the help we can get to continue doing the work we're doing. Until next time, I'm David Sirota keep rocking the

Unknown Speaker 1:12:13
boat

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