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From the Lever’s reader supported newsroom this is Lever Time…

I’m Arjun Singh.

It’s the 11th hour in the standoff between Joe Biden and the donors, the party and most recently Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.

In a tidal wave of protest, the party’s congressional leadership told Biden they’d lost their confidence in him. And those sentiments match a majority of Democratic voters.

Meanwhile, Republicans seemed happier than ever as they gathered in Wisconsin just days after an attempted assassination of Donald Trump to pledge their loyalty to the man.

It’s all amounted to what has to be the weirdest week in American politics.

Today on Lever Time, David Sirota and I sit down with Atlantic contributing writer Tyler Austin Harper to unpack how these unfolding political crises seemingly end.

Less than a week after surviving an assassination attempt Donald Trump took the stage at the Republican National Convention.

In a speech….

The RNC was less of a convention and more of a coronation. For years, the GOP has morphed from a conservative right-wing party to one solely dedicated to supporting Trump.

Throughout the week Republicans of different stripes took the stage to pay fealty to Trump. Despite the strange week, the convention actually looked and sounded like your average Republican convention.

But this convention was anything but normal. Unlike most political conventions, this one didn’t feature scions of the Republican dynasties of the past.

There were no cabinet secretaries from previous Republican administrations, and George W. Bush, the last living Republican president was nowhere to be found.

Instead, the head of the Teamsters, one of America’s biggest labor unions took to the stage and railed against corporate power.

No, this isn’t your parents' Republican Party. Instead, the week was filled with Trump’s allies, and the next generation of Republicans – people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and J.D. Vance, who was announced as Trump’s vice presidential pick.

Vance perhaps more than the others seemed to represent what feels like a realignment in Republican politics.

In the senate, he has surprisingly reached across the aisle on some populist measures. He teamed up with Elizabeth Warren to try to penalize bankers who’s banks failed. He’s praised Lina Khan, the chair of the FTC, for going after gigantic firms like amazon and google. He even supported cracking down on the credit card industry.

This doesn't feel like the party of Reagan – the man who ushered in the era of megacorporations and monopolies – anymore.

Then again, in politics chameleons are a dime a dozen, and Vance is a perfect example of that. Eight years ago, Vance once compared Trump to Hitler. A few years later he defended Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 election on baseless lies. And this week he stood next to the former president smiling like a kid holding an ice cream cone.

And while his senate record has earned him the reputation of being something of an economic populist – let’s remember Vance is a multi-millionaire venture capitalist.

Someone who spent years in Silicon Valley learning how to make money – which is why it’s notable that several tech VC’s — the big money investors —seemed elated by Vance’s elevation. As one venture capitalist put it, “We’ve now got one of our own going to the White House.”

Perhaps most revelatory though was Vance’s recent comments to lobbyists where he walked back his support for reigning in credit card fees.

And that goes for Trump too. let’s not forget that despite Donald Trump claiming to be a crusader for the working class. The things he brags about the most are cutting taxes and regulations.

Whatever is going on though – something has changed in the water. While it remains to be seen whether Republicans are really evolving, it is clear this is a different party from the past.

The old guard has been defeated, and a new generation of conservatives are coming in.

Rather than pledge fealty to corporate America and big business, these Republicans are culture warriors.

Ones who don’t mind trying to punish big business for pushing back on their conservative and frequently narrow view of what it means to be an American.

Meanwhile, the Democrats seem to be collapsing. This week, new reporting said that Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, the congressional leaders for the Democrats both think Biden should drop out.

Even more damning is that Nancy Pelosi does too. Added to that is a COVID-19 diagnosis for President Biden that once again put the precarity of his age back into the spotlight. The situation has become so dire that says some senior Democrats speculate Biden could drop out of the race as soon as this weekend.

So, yeah, it’s been a weird week.

To make sense of all this I turned to Tyler Austin Harper.

Tyler’s a frequent contributor to The Atlantic and an assistant professor of environmental studies at Bates College in Maine.

David Sirota and I sat down with Tyler to see if he can help make sense of one of the strangest weeks in American politics, if not American history.

Arjun (00:01.356)
Tyler, awesome to have you here. Welcome to lever time. I think where I'd love to start just with this conversation is let's go back to a little less than a week ago, to place it, you know, I was in a pizza place with my friends and all of a sudden they start pointing at the TV and you see the Trump rally. He grabs his ear. Later on, we find out this was an assassination attempt, but I think what's more remembered is the iconic image by that AP photographer of Trump raising his fist. He's,

blood's clearly on his face. What was your first impression of that image, Tyler? And if history or politics is a narrative, if you will, what does it seem like the narrative now? I feel like there's post picture an assassination attempt of Trump America, and there might even be like the pre assassination attempt on Trump America. And the narrative feels like it may have shifted, but we're so early in this. But for someone who I know thinks a lot about this kind of stuff, what

Was your impression and yet do you see a narrative shift that's now happened in kind of the American discourse?

Tyler Harper (01:07.275)
I see a slight narrative shift. It's not as big as I would have thought. When I first saw that photo, I first of all, I will say I was relieved that, you know, the former president survived, you know, regardless of how I feel about him, you political violence is bad. upon seeing that photo and watching video of him, you know, pumping his fist and his face is covered in blood and he's yelling

Immediately my heart dropped a little bit because I was like, that is going to be a really iconic photo that I think is really going to rally a lot of his supporters. And it is this moment where I think a lot of us on the left tend to very reasonably so make fun of the Trump fans who do all the fan art and imagine Trump is a Revolutionary War hero with a six pack and a bare chest and stuff. And we should make fun of that stuff. But this was a kind of moment where how

Trump fans imagine Trump kind of collided with reality for a minute because he did have this, I think, surprising to many of us moment of kind of, you know, bravery and stoicism. But that being said, I don't I think the image hasn't had, at least to my mind, as much impact as I initially suspected, I think for a number of reasons. One is that the shooter is a Republican and that has kind of muddled and quieted the narrative a little bit. And so

I'm not sure if the assassination is going to be as big of a factor as I maybe originally anticipated. mean, that could change. It's only been a week. so far, seems like we moved on a little quicker than I anticipated.

Arjun (02:41.099)
Yeah, I think what was interesting about the revelation of the identity of the shooter is that it wasn't coming across so much as a political assassination, but it was emblematic of another very unfortunate aspect of American life, which is the mass shootings and shootings are very normal. Even if you're the president of the United States, it can happen at your events. You know, another thing I think about is for the left and the right or however we want to kind

break things down. America's clearly really polarized and I feel like if you were MAGA or if you were on the conservative side, you saw one thing in that image. You saw defiance. saw perseverance in the face of perceived attempts to stop you or take you down or threats against you. And I think if you're on the liberal side, if you were someone who's very concerned about the state of the election and you're like a political guy,

You probably said, my God, this could be the election. But I think that another aspect is, you know, it was a frightening idea that this is now coming home to America. Where do you think that those two camps are? Like, how do you think that picture can be interpreted? Have you seen kind of different interpretations of that picture in the past

Tyler Harper (03:56.772)
Yeah, I mean, I think the Republicans are rallying around it. It's, know, as anyone would have guessed, it's being put on t -shirts and flags and signs and those kinds of things.

David Sirota (04:04.598)
Did you, by the way, did you see that the AP like put out in a directive saying like nobody is

David Sirota (04:12.288)
express written consent. feel like the AP yeah, yeah, the AP sort of yeah, the AP sort of said like, hey, this is our picture. So I feel like there's gonna be like a battle of the

Arjun (04:14.179)
really?

Tyler Harper (04:15.617)
I did not.

Tyler Harper (04:21.984)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. People selling bootleg t -shirts outside of Trump rallies and yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I did not see that. That's interesting. Yeah, no, I mean, I do think the Republicans are rallying around the image. do think the one thing I think is positive about it is, like I said, I do think it allowed a certain kind of person on the left like me to see Trump through the eyes of his supporters, which is like, think humanizing in a way, you know,

Arjun (04:25.011)
I'm sure.

Tyler Harper (04:49.579)
someone asked me if I felt the same, like, cause when I saw that photo, was like, that is in fact a pretty cool photo. And someone asked me who I felt that way about the mugshot, which was also a kind of rallying image for Trump voters. And I was like, no, because that just confirmed my preconceived notions of him as like a felon, you know? So like, no, but this was an image where I think myself and a number of other people on the left kind of saw it and were like, you know,

I get what the appeal is for his voters. And yes, there's this like delusional aspect to imagining Trump is this crusading hero. But there is like, you can understand the appeal, at least in a kind of this frozen moment, you know? But I am, it does not seem like it's gonna have any lasting purchase. I also think there's just a problem, which is that both of these candidates are, their support feels really locked in at this point. Like both of them seem to be

They seem to have like a floor and a ceiling that is a pretty narrow bandwidth and they're just fluctuating within that. And I'm not sure that there's this legion of swing state voters that, I mean, maybe if the election were being held next week that he'd have a big bump, but I don't know that that image four months from now is going to be what, you know, drags him across the finish line. I think it's a bunch of other things that

David Sirota (06:03.025)
I think what was amazing about the image and the video actually is how media literate Donald Trump is. I I perceived it as this guy has conflict and spectacle and message so baked in to the reptilian part of his brain that even

Tyler Harper (06:12.917)
yeah.

Tyler Harper (06:27.658)
Totally.

David Sirota (06:30.019)
amid the chaos and scariness of that moment. You could almost see it like something kicked in. There's this moment where the Secret Service are on top of him and then he's like, wait a minute, you could see it, the gears were turning. He was

Arjun (06:43.268)
Well, you did you did you hear the actual audio is when he gets back up there is audio of it and he says, wait, wait, wait. Then he says, let me get my shoe. And then he says, wait, and he says, fight, fight, fight. And I think you're completely right. I think there was an aspect of Trump because Trump is a media creation. I mean, he, his whole rise is the media. And I do think, I don't think it's conspiratorial at all to think that in that moment.

Tyler Harper (06:43.675)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (06:50.288)
Yeah, yes.

Tyler Harper (06:52.263)
Yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (06:53.223)
Ha

Tyler Harper (07:01.442)
yeah, yeah.

Arjun (07:08.238)
He said, this is an opportunity and I got to send a message. So wait, don't escort me off right away.

Tyler Harper (07:13.733)
Yeah,

David Sirota (07:13.764)
And I can't believe I'm going to say this, but like I want to give him credit in this way, which is I think that is the instinct that a political leader frankly needs to have that I was impressed. mean, I, I don't like Donald Trump. That that's an understatement, right? But I was impressed that even amid that chaos, he was like, essentially I have to present not just as a

but I am going to present even further as a sort of like an image of leadership. I'm going to use this moment to egg on my movement. I don't think there's, I mean, it's opportunistic, it's super media literate. And I think in some weird way, it's almost admirable. It's

I mean, I don't want to go so far as I saw somebody online say, well, know, this is the proof of, Donald Trump is the man in the arena. He's Teddy Roosevelt. I don't want to go all the way to that. But I do think it's like, this is why Donald Trump is a formidable force in American politics, because he has that

Tyler Harper (08:19.993)
I saw that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tyler Harper (08:31.417)
Yeah, I totally agree. mean, I also think too, there's just like a thing that's really frustrated me with the Biden supporters is that when he looks frail and can't project anything approaching vitality, they're like, well, the president's job isn't to project, you know, youthful vigor, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, I mean, it is a little bit actually. They're supposed to project. Yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (08:49.079)
No, I would say, I would actually say it's mostly the job. I think that's most of the job action. We'll get it. I mean, okay, we can talk about it right now. My view is that this whole idea that like, there's this presidency job that you do over here. You're like, you know, doing policy and you're sitting in the Oval Office. And then there's this like other job that's like a side job where you're like communicating and being like a public leader. I think that's horse shit. I think it's like, I think it's

Tyler Harper (09:13.767)
Totally,

Arjun (09:14.446)
Yo, absolutely.

David Sirota (09:15.49)
10 % of your job is like real time spot decisions, right? 10 % of your job is like appointing the people to make the thousands of decisions that you can't make every day. And then like 80 % of your job is the public stuff. That's like 80 % of the job. And if you can't do that job effectively, you're saying you really can't do the whole job, right? There's no just doing the 20 % and not doing the

Tyler Harper (09:30.372)
Totally.

Tyler Harper (09:44.355)
Completely.

Arjun (09:44.416)
Well, we talk about, you know, growing up, you're supposed to take writing classes. You're supposed to take public speaking classes. I mean, we, we all work in a communicative. I was going to call it an art, but I don't know what we do. What is an art David, but we work in a communications field, but it's like the whole kind of double thing with what Biden is doing is now it's like, no, no, Communicating your ideas isn't important. Being able to communicate at all. Is it important just being smart? And I think to myself.

There is no job that you can realistically do where you can just say like, don't have to communicate at all. I'm sure there are some, like, you know, I worked in the hospitality sector. That's all communication. Journalism is all communication. One quick thing I do want to just double back on though is something that Tyler, you were saying earlier, which is that the assassination attempt doesn't really seem to have moved where people are. And you know, I feel like that's notable and not to, you

call you out on this David, but you were you were somewhere present in the 80s when Ronald Reagan was also he had an assassination attempt. Well, I was just wondering that, you know, was that a moment though, where I think a lot of people saw the head of state suffer an assassination attempt and it galvanized people. I mean, it was it was a national conversation. I think even if you were a Democrat or a liberal,

David Sirota (10:52.477)
I mean, I was six. I was six, so I have no memory. I'm old, I'm not like that old.

Arjun (11:13.055)
You felt moved in a way because it was this idea that there was a wholeness, that the presidency was whole. This, seeing the way that we're kind of able to move past it, feels like it underscores the factionalization or just the fracturing of America, whether it's through media discourse, through politics or everything. know, Tyler, I'd be curious what you think of that. And then David

Tyler Harper (11:37.971)
Yeah, you know, I do think I will say the response across the board has been more moderate than I expected. And I do think, you know, I think the reaction of lot of everyday people is I think this is sort of getting I don't want to say it's getting memory holds, but I do think there was a sense that a lot of people had that this was a moment where if this bullet were an inch to the right, we'd be in a very different country, you know, particularly. mean,

given the massive secret service, just incompetence, the conspiracy theories we're already seeing, I mean, those would be cranked up to 11, you know? And so I do think a lot of people saw that we were at this moment, we were kind of on the edge of a cliff. And I think without giving anyone too much credit, I do think there was a little bit of backing away from the edge, both with politicians.

and with the public. think that's partly because, again, the shooter was a Republican. think if this were, you know, some supercharged Democrat that had been mainlining cable news and fascism rhetoric and then try to shoot Trump, I think we'd be having a different conversation. But I guess the black the glass half empty way to read it is as this like fracturing and we didn't have this kumbaya moment. But I think the glass half empty way to read it is that I think a lot of people were like, you know, this could go down a very dark.

if we really leaned into it. And I think a lot of people stepped back a little bit. And who knows if that lasts, you know, if, you know, Trump starts slipping in the polls, maybe there will be a strategy of, you know, they tried to kill me, they were out to get me, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I'm not trying to give too much credit in advance, but I do think there's like a glass half empty case to be made for how quickly we've moved past this.

Arjun (13:15.921)
Mm

David Sirota (13:18.664)
I think it's coming back. I don't think I think it may go dormant for a little bit. And I think Trump was clearly shaken by it, understandably so. But I think it's going to come back. I don't think it's just sort of like a blip. And to be clear, there have been assassination attempts that really were blips. mean, I think Gerald Ford faced two assassination attempts in the course of like four or five weeks. I may be getting some of this wrong, but yeah, there were there were

Arjun (13:43.533)
really?

Tyler Harper (13:48.272)
So

David Sirota (13:48.363)
I think he had two assassination attempts and they were kind of blips. He wasn't shot, by the way. I Trump literally had blood on his face, which, which, which illustrates how, how, how close it got. Right. But, but, but I, but I do think that, I, I, I do think what was so terrifying about it and why I was so happy that Trump was not actually assassinated.

Tyler Harper (13:57.356)
Mm -hmm changes

David Sirota (14:18.016)
Is because I think you're right that would have taken this situation obviously to a potentially even darker place. I mean clearly clearly we are Lots of people feel like we are on the precipice of something like this all feels like a breaking point And and and the thing is is that it's funny. I I had a long planned trip with my wife last week. I was just it was

Tyler Harper (14:27.593)
yeah.

David Sirota (14:46.339)
planned it forever ago. was like, you know, we're doing this trip. And and literally when I called back in to work, you know, just to check in, I'm like, this feels like the biggest news week of a generation. I mean, it really feels like Joe Biden, the current president, is teetering. The opponent is was just faced an assassination attempt. I mean, this really feels

Tyler Harper (15:00.87)
yeah.

David Sirota (15:14.976)
in some ways like it must have felt. I imagine it must have felt back in the in the 60's and and and early set early 70's and you you look back on it in history and you're like wow must have been interesting to live through that now you're actually living through you like wow this this this actually doesn't feel that sweet like this. This doesn't interesting is not the right the right. Right. mean I mean Right. I mean I think I think. So.

Tyler Harper (15:32.331)
No, not too

Arjun (15:32.802)
Music's definitely not as good.

Tyler Harper (15:37.228)
Yeah, music soundtrack is worse.

Arjun (15:39.958)
Hahaha!

David Sirota (15:43.765)
So I guess Tyler, I would throw it back to you and ask, you know, you know, how much do you think? I mean, let's talk about the Trump existential threat thing, the response to Trump and Trump's side did throw out, which was that, you know, you saw JD Vance, for instance, was, was the first one out

to try to kind of blame the other side for this. And you saw other Republican Congress people saying, you know, I saw one say, what, Joe Biden, this was ordered by Joe Biden, or, you know, this is because the other side has been calling Trump a fascist or a threat to democracy. And then, of course, predictably, you saw the Democrats immediately fold and start essentially insinuating a set of apologies. I mean,

I guess the question that comes out of that is, you know, how much do you think the Democrats are going to like basically stand down or stand down at least a little bit because of what happened? How much do you think Trump being able to portray himself as a victim will essentially bully the Democrats into a softer posture against

Tyler Harper (17:03.754)
I think the Democrats are always have been and lately absolutely have been looking for any excuse to be incompetent cowards. And so I think the Trump thing is just the latest excuse, the assassination attempt to, you know, stay this disastrous course that we're on with Biden, you know. And so I, you know, I don't think it's I don't think it's that they're misreading the situation or like, I think we need to, you

Moderate our tone and talk a little bit less about the fascism thing etc etc. I don't think that comes from a sincere place I think you know they're just hell -bent on this course of action everyone is paralyzed with Fear that they're gonna be held accountable for any decision that gets made so instead they're making no decision at all And so I just think the assassination thing is a convenient excuse to do nothing Which they've already been doing you know and now they have some some minor justification

David Sirota (17:57.414)
I mean, what do we make of this thing of this tension here? Where I have kind of an unanswerable question, but this tension where the Democrats are constantly saying Donald Trump represents an existential threat to the country, an existential threat to democracy, an existential threat to sort of the nor quote unquote normal way of American life. And yet the Democrats seem not to be in action.

taking those same threats and warnings seriously in putting up much of a fight against Donald Trump. mean, what is the takeaway from that? That what? That the politicians just don't believe he's that much of a threat? Like they're just saying it, but they don't believe it. I I've kind of said that, that having worked in politics, having worked in journalism for as long as I have,

My suspicion is, is that the Democrats don't believe their own rhetoric about Donald Trump, or at least the people speaking just think, hey, yeah, Donald Trump, Trump represent the threat, but I'll be fine. So we don't really have to take it that seriously. But I do wonder if you, if you think that's the case, is there some other explanation for how they could be sounding the alarm about Trump in, in. With the, with the tenor of the rhetoric that they use, but then not in actions.

seeming to be willing to run any kind of serious opposition campaign to Trump right now. What's your takeaway on

Tyler Harper (19:35.557)
Yeah, no, I don't think they believe it at all. mean, I'm sure some of them individually do, but I collectively they absolutely do not. mean, one of the reasons, you people like, well, Biden's so weak. Why has no one come forward and say, I will run against Biden if he or I will be the nominee if he was withdrawals from the race or I'd like to my hat in ring. The answer to that is very simple, which is that a number of these Democrats like Gavin Newsom, et cetera, are waiting for 2028 to have their election bid. Right. And, you know, so

That gives the lie a bit to this idea that, if we have Trump, there's going to be no more elections when all these Democrats are just like quietly sitting back waiting for 2028, the next election. like, no, I don't think they believe this at all. You know, I mean, there's been reporting from Ezra Klein and other people that behind the scenes are like, well, you know, if Trump wins, he wins and like, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't think they believe it at all. I think there's a percentage of

shut -ins and people who watch a lot of cable news that you know what gets called blue MAGA that really absolutely believe the fascism stuff I don't think most democratic officials believe it. I don't think most voters believe it I don't think minority voters who are apparently according to the Democrats are gonna get sent to the camps if Trump is elected believe that because They're breaking 20 black voters are breaking 20 to 25 percent for Trump. Hispanics are breaking about 50 percent for Trump. And

This whole narrative of like fascism, democracies over no more elections, we're going to have a racist handmaid's tale hellscape. No one believes that, you know, and that's why we're losing because that has been the message of the Democratic Party, not a policy platform, not this is what we stand for. This is our economic agenda. This is how we're going to rebuild the middle class. It has been, if you don't vote for us, it's basically a hostage situation. You're going to get this racist fascist and no one believes it. And, know, this is the problem with putting forward Joe Biden,

Arjun (21:13.7)
Mm -hmm.

Tyler Harper (21:20.597)
Like if nobody believes the lie you're trying, like you shouldn't lie, but if no one believes the lie you're trying to tell that A, there's gonna be fascism and B, this man is competent to serve another four years, then obviously people are just gonna ignore you. And that's what we're seeing happening. So no, I think it's nihilism across the

David Sirota (21:34.91)
I mean, but I want to pipe up and say that I don't think, I think there's a grain of truth in there in the idea that Donald Trump, and I mean this sort of the term specifically, has fascist or authoritarian tendencies. Now, I don't think that means he's Hitler, right? Like Bolsonaro was a fascist, right? Like Erdogan in Turkey is a fascist.

Tyler Harper (21:41.568)
sure.

Tyler Harper (21:52.599)
yeah, yeah, Right,

Arjun (22:03.721)
Mm -hmm. Moaty.

Tyler Harper (22:03.754)
Yep. Yep. Or the hungry guy. Yeah.

David Sirota (22:04.563)
Modi is a fascist, guy, Orban is a fascist. And in each of those different societies, some modicum of democracy exists. I mean, it's worse in Hungary than it is in some of the other examples that, you know, I mean, but the point is, is that I don't think it's like the election is like Trump gets elected. That's it. We're now the third Reich, right? I mean, that's like obviously absurd. And I

Tyler Harper (22:31.826)
Yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (22:34.228)
The Democrats sometimes sound like that, and I think a lot of people then tune it out and eye roll it. But I also... Right.

Tyler Harper (22:39.826)
I mean, the New Republic is printing magazine covers with trumpet in the image of Hitler. It's insane, you know?

Arjun (22:44.374)
Alright.

David Sirota (22:45.404)
I mean, it's that that is absolutely insane now and it violates Godwin's law right with Godwin's law is the law of online discourse that every argument ends up with somebody ultimately making a Hitler reference and that essentially when you make a Hitler reference like Your arguments over like nobody can hear anything I mean I I actually and so I'm gonna break Godwin's law myself right here and say that I do think there are like echoes

Tyler Harper (23:00.187)
Yeah,

Tyler Harper (23:04.082)
Yeah, yeah,

David Sirota (23:14.202)
of what happened between Weimar Germany and the Third Reich, that transition. There are echoes in the United States about our politics. I don't think that means that Donald Trump is Hitler or that the Nazis are coming into power. So I think in some ways what we're really saying is the Democrats have like overplayed their hand on that argument. And now they've numbed everyone to the real actual less than Hitler dangers.

Tyler Harper (23:26.245)
Yeah, yeah.

Arjun (23:34.846)
Mm -hmm.

David Sirota (23:44.035)
of Donald Trump. Like for instance, this week at the lever we reported that JD Vance went on record to try to pressure federal regulators to allow local police to access women's private medical records for the purposes of following them into other states when they seek abortion services in other states. Now, that's pretty fascist,

Tyler Harper (24:11.31)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

David Sirota (24:12.038)
That's real. And it's real. Like, that's a real thing that really happened. What I fear, honestly, is that in the context of this election, because Democrats have so overplayed their hands, that there's a portion of the population that could be a swingable vote that can't hear that because they're like, that's bullshit. Like, you know, you're just telling me Trump's Hitler now. So I don't even believe, like, they won't even believe the real stuff because they've heard too much Trump is Hitler and they know Trump isn't Hitler.

Tyler Harper (24:41.613)
Yes, I think that's the real danger here is that there is almost no chance that Trump is Hitler and we have some American Reich.

There's a very good chance we have democratic backsliding, which is the way to think about things, I think. And there's a really good chance that we have an expansion of the role that the National Guard plays in our everyday life because of immigration stuff, et cetera, all of which is really bad. And I think the danger is not simply by overplaying your hand. think it's bad electorally, but I also think it's also bad because it normalizes if we have anything that falls short of an American

it basically becomes, well, actually it wasn't that bad, right? Like, we're like merely tracking pregnant women. You all said we're gonna have this dystopian handmaid's tale hellscape. I can still go to the grocery store and hang out with my friends and we have a normal society, but some things are worse, right? And I think that's the real danger is when you

Arjun (25:32.955)
Mm -hmm.

David Sirota (25:39.041)
Right, so he was only an American Mussolini, he wasn't an American Hitler, so it's cool.

Tyler Harper (25:42.227)
Exactly, yes. And I think that's actually really dangerous because it kind of, I think, desensitizes us to like some really bad things that could happen in the next four years, you

Arjun (25:53.666)
Yeah, and I think what you're getting at is something I've been thinking a lot about, which is, you know, we've talked a lot about the right and conservatives and to be very clear, I think the far right uses some of the most insane hyperbolic language, you know, saying radical socialists are going to take over the country and Biden's the second coming of Stalin. That's ridiculous, But now I do see just such a detachment from the Democrats in almost a sillier way is the way that now

Tyler Harper (26:10.133)
Neo -Marxists.

Arjun (26:23.652)
because they realize they have such a bad candidate in Joe Biden, it's like polls are fake, all the reporting about him is fake, all the concerns are fake, you guys are all just, yeah, yeah, you guys are just making everything up. That feels a little Trumpian, but something that I do wonder is that the state of politics has become not just corrosive to the point that most people, would say probably sane people, look at that and say, hell no, I don't ever want to participate in that arena, but

Tyler Harper (26:32.927)
Liking Kamala as racist, that's my favorite.

David Sirota (26:35.416)
Yeah,

Arjun (26:53.675)
I also just feel like politics has gotten so detached from most people. Like I go on Twitter and I'm like to really be the man in the arena on Twitter. You have to have such a pessimistic, angry outlook sometimes on the world. You have to constantly think the world is teetering on the brink of whole destruction. And when I get out of, I live in Washington DC, when I get out of DC,

Tyler Harper (27:12.361)
Yeah.

Arjun (27:22.018)
When I stopped talking to people in the political class, I realized people are concerned. They don't want abortions to be tracked like that. They don't want this encroachment of their civil rights. They're also living their lives. You know, they're still able to be happy. They can still hang out with their friends. You know, they can still record stupid TikToks at the office of everyone dancing around. And that to me is this disconnect where our political elite from both parties

Tyler Harper (27:35.08)
Yes.

Arjun (27:50.786)
have felt that they can just message this fatalistic, angry thing. And I think a lot of the country is like, it's not that bad. Like, can we still enjoy our lives? And I don't know where that's coming from, but it doesn't seem like it is a winning electoral strategy, especially for the Democrats. But I'd be curious what you guys think.

Tyler Harper (28:12.26)
No, I agree with you. know, I, right after Trump was shot, I went into, I went to pick up pizza because I was writing an article in response to it and I wasn't going to make dinner, so I went to pick up pizza at this bar nearby that does pizza and it's kind of a Trumpy -ish place with what I will describe as a very purple clientele. live in Maine.

And I went into this bar and it's kind of a sports bar. there's TVs everywhere, et cetera. Not a single TV had CNN or Fox News or the news on. And it was like two hours after the shooting. clearly people knew that this had happened. And they were just hanging out and drinking and eating pizza and talking about sports. And I really do think the average, and this is not to circle back, but one of the reasons why I think the

Arjun (28:42.134)
Mm -hmm.

Tyler Harper (29:01.156)
The Trump assassination thing is probably just a wash because I think there's a certain kind of swing voter, maybe, who's like, you know what? He was tough and resolute and Biden's this frail old man. I'm going to vote for Trump. Sure. I believe some of those people exist. I also think there are people and it's not Trump's fault someone tried to shoot at him, but I think there is also people that are like, he invites chaos. I don't want four more years of this. Like, I just I want to be normal and just like live my life and not have to watch the news constantly because our country's insane. You know,

Arjun (29:21.579)
sure.

Tyler Harper (29:30.83)
And yeah, I don't know. do think it is the political class that views this election. And I think it's worth saying, right? I you pointed this out, but the Republicans equally cast this election in existential terms. They did that in 2016 with the Flight 93 election discourse. We absolutely see that now. Trump's saying, you won't have a country if you don't vote for me. So both sides do it. But I just don't think regular people

believe that, you know, I was struck by a lot of the interviews with people coming out of the Trump rally with BBC and you know, all these these news outlets and almost every Trump supporter they talked to was like, you know, there's a lot of anger in this country and people on both sides are really mad and it just feels like we should all be able to have our political opinions, blah, blah, blah. And it was not like, you know, it was not a call for like violence and bloodshed. was like this is it seems like things are getting out of hand. And so I think

The narrative that this election's existential is something that only politicos and like really hardcore supporters on either side believe.

David Sirota (30:30.221)
Well, I also think that you may be right that the assassination itself will end up being on a voting level, a political wash in this way. I do think there's something to the idea that as many people who will be motivated to support Trump because he looked like a strong, resolute figure in that moment, and that moment kind of crystallized that image for him in contrast to the weak, frail old Joe Biden.

as many voters who are going to be motivated by that, you're right. There may be as many voters who are like, Trump is a circus. Trump is a chaos agent. He brings chaos wherever he goes, not blaming him for being shot at, but that I just don't want that. Like I was going to vote against all of that. And so electorally, it may be a wash. Where I think Trump has a potential advantage in this race,

Tyler Harper (31:16.49)
Yeah.

David Sirota (31:29.07)
is in how he, imagistically, and I want to make that distinct from policy, imagistically is trying to reshape what the Republican Party exudes. And I think his pick of JD Vance executed that rather perfectly. And I think I actually think that his pick of JD Vance was a good political pick, a shrewd move. I'm again,

Just for anyone who takes me out of context, I'm not saying I like JD Vance. I'm saying I think as a political move, I think it was smart in that he is trying to reshape the Republican Party to have a, and I'm putting this in quotes, a populist image. I think the Democrats have given up trying to look like a populist party, or at least for now have given up trying to look like a populist party.

Tyler Harper (32:02.303)
Yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (32:27.081)
They are trying to be a party that defends norms and institutions and normalcy. And Trump and the Republicans want to exude. And it's not just grievance, right? mean, the old conservative politics of pure grievance, it's not just like Rush Limbaugh agreement. It's like, it's a forward thinking populism. And JD Vance, who has worked with Democrats on various

bills in Congress, you to lower the price of insulin, rail safety legislation, et cetera, et cetera. JD Vance talks a good game about being a different kind of Republican. And I think that is, I can see the appeal of that, right? And with all the criticism of the agenda, knowing that they're putting forward a populist image while also, you know, putting forward an agenda that's

the Mitt Romney agenda, the George Bush agenda. Right. mean, that's that that's the funny thing is that like the country club Republicans are sort of out of the out of the leaders are kind of out. not at the convention. They're out of the Republican Party. But like their agenda is still there. I mean, Trump is talking this week about cutting corporate tax rates. So like how populist are we talking? But this is my take is and tell me if you guys think I'm wrong. My take is, that if you acknowledge that we live in a country where elections have become all about vibes. And I think that's unfortunate.

Tyler Harper (33:51.343)
Yeah.

David Sirota (33:51.837)
then the policy agenda, actually, whether it's populist or not matters less than whether you look like a populist. Don't you agree?

Arjun (33:58.481)
I think that's absolutely the case with JD Vance. And I want to get this to you, Tyler, and hear what you think. Because to me, JD Vance has been so funny if you take the idea that, and David and I were talking about this before we logged on, that politicians are not vehicles to have constituents get policy pushed across or do what's best. They're not superheroes. They're not celebrities. They're just that. But we don't live in that place. We see politicians as storylines and narratives and characters.

So JD Vance has always struck me as funny because I remember when that hillbilly elegy came out and it was like, this is perfect. We've got the Cassandra who's telling us what's going on in rural white America. And all of these liberals flocked to him as basically translate the mysterious angry world. And now he runs for Senate. He flips politically and everyone's really pissed off and angry.

Tyler Harper (34:34.209)
Yeah.

Tyler Harper (34:46.519)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arjun (34:58.291)
But there's a part of me that's like, okay, but this is a liberal problem that you wanted a storyline about rural white America. And I don't know JD Vance. I've never spoken to JD Vance. He might just be a political chameleon. But on one hand, people are sort of picking apart, particularly on the liberal side, like, well, if he's such a rural white American, how come he went to Yale? How come he works in venture capital? And a part of me is like, I mean, does that mean you're still

from a rural area, you're still not a white American. Like, what do these kind of weird factors have to do with your identity? But you wrote a really cool article in the Atlantic about another book called, I believe, White Rural Rage. Tell me about this book. I admittedly did not read it. Your piece made a good case of, from an anthropological sense of why, but this idea of just like...

Tyler Harper (35:43.873)
Yeah, that's it.

Arjun (35:55.912)
parachuting in and trying to conjure up storylines out of people's lives. What were you talking about with white rural rage? And do you see some of that with kind of Vance right now, this obsession with rural America?

Tyler Harper (36:08.925)
Yeah, you know, I think what that book did was play into a lot of stereotypes about rural America that I just don't think are true. And that really downplayed that wasn't very interested in asking. I'm perfectly willing to admit rural America has more problems with racism than other parts of the country and that they're more conservative, et cetera. That's obviously true. But there was just a deep in curiosity in that book about how that became the case and what are the structural factors and forces that lead to

broad and sweeping discontent in these kinds of places and economic immiseration and so on. And I do think that there is this kind of noble savage trope that gets applied to rural people that liberals just like love to mine them for their folksy wisdom and get emissaries from the white working class to tell it like it is. And JD Vance plays into that. But I do want to pick up on something you said, David, which is that I agree, I've been shocked that my fellow liberals think

One, that JD Vance was a bad pick, and two, think he was the worst available pick for our country. mean, and I think there's a way in which they kind of tell on themselves that the Democratic Party actually is just a party in the service of Wall Street elites and wealthy suburbanites, right? Because if you're thinking about, JD Vance, and I don't want to give him too much credit, I don't believe all the shtick, but he has done some bipartisan, economically populous things with Democrats. And so,

David Sirota (37:34.207)
He has.

Tyler Harper (37:35.076)
He's the most moderate economically of the available Republican vice presidential candidates. And then you're all melting down about picking that choice. It's like, well, if you're going to pick one of them, I think I'd probably prefer the economic populist. I'm not going to like any of their policies. And I think there'll be just a smoke screen from Mitt Romney -ism. But nonetheless, I found it really baffling that so many ostensible leftists seem to prefer like a Mitt Romney clone in the vice presidency than JD Vance.

But secondly, I think you're right. I think it's vibes and aesthetics. One thing I'm really interested in, in grad school, I did a lot of sort of research and work on the history of the American right. And it's something a lot of people don't realize is that before the really like Cold War, 1940s, 1950s, there was a deep strain of free market skeptical, vaguely anti -capitalist conservatism that ran through America. And you know,

I think what we're seeing with JD Vance and the Trump Vance ticket is a resurrection of the aesthetics of that. I don't think the substance of it's being resurrected, but the aesthetics of we are anti -free market. We are a little agnostic about capitalism. We're certainly very agnostic about global capitalism. And we're going to talk this big economic game. And I don't think it's, it's completely a lie. Like I think there's been a lot of discourse about JD Vance is a fraud, blah, blah.

And I'm sure there's something to that, but like he also does have a record of like accomplishing some economically populous things, as you mentioned, David, you know, and so I think over, I think you can overstate how much of an economic populist he is, but I also think there's a lot of understating it that's happening right now, you know, but I do think we're seeing the aesthetics of this anti -free market, old conservatism returning, how much of the substance will get some open question, but I think that is the vibe and I think that's a winning vibe.

Because the Democrats are not I mean they've abandoned economic populism. I'm not even sure what their platform is at this

David Sirota (39:28.402)
Well, what's the crazy thing is, but the crazy thing about the Democrats abandoning economic populism is that in policy, they actually haven't. That's the craziest part of this whole election. I've said it before, I will say it again. Joe Biden, we're not talking about the aesthetic of Joe Biden. We're just talking about like the actual policies. Joe Biden has put forward and enacted

Tyler Harper (39:37.527)
Yes. Absolutely.

David Sirota (39:54.438)
the most populist economic policy agenda of any president in 50 years. Now, I always caveat that by saying that's also a big commentary on the past presidents of the last 50 years, okay? It's a low bar. in presentation and in brand, you wouldn't know that because the brand that the Biden administration and the Democratic party puts forward is a brand of...

Tyler Harper (40:06.806)
Yeah.

David Sirota (40:23.173)
Managing a decline, principle, sorry, defending manners, etiquette, norms, right? They are not in a posture, a fighting spirit posture, whereas the Republicans are. And typically in elections, the public is voting for the fighting posture, the happy warrior, right?

Tyler Harper (40:45.962)
Yeah.

David Sirota (40:46.179)
Typically what's and I think the Republicans get that and the Democrats that's the craziest part there. They're actually enacting a a moderately populist agenda and they're not branding themselves as as popular or they're unable to or they're right I mean, that's the craziest part of this now. I want to go back to Vance and this this aesthetic change of the Republican Party. I totally agree with you and I I was terrified frankly

Tyler Harper (40:53.461)
They're doing it. Yeah.

David Sirota (41:16.192)
When Donald Trump first got elected president, my theory was, OK, if this guy's smart, here's what he's going to do. OK, he's going to go out there. And he is the first thing he's going to do is do something like if folks remember this at the time, there was that stalled tunnel between New Jersey and New York, right? New York and New York, they need to build this.

Amtrak tunnel and it's been stalled in bureaucratic red tape and environmental review and it hasn't been built right and I was like You know what's gonna happen is that the first thing Donald Trump is gonna do is he's gonna be like I'm gonna build that tunnel in like six months and I'm not gonna give a shit about the Environmentals I'm gonna show that like I'm a big government Republican just get it done. I don't care about you know don't I'm not gonna worry about my party and talking about spending I'm gonna like rebrand as this like big government Republican populist, right

I was afraid he was going to do that. And he didn't do that because he got and I've heard people theorize that it's because Bannon got out of the White House. Bannon wasn't there. Bannon was the kind of guy, the smart, the smart kind of guy who would have told him to do that. And instead he got surrounded by Gary Cohn from Goldman Sachs, et cetera, and essentially governed like Mitt Romney. And that was his mistake. But I think this time around, I think my guess is that Trump gets it and that the pick of Vance

Tyler Harper (42:23.506)
Yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (42:34.737)
I think Vance gets it too. And I think the scary story to tell about JD Vance is not that he's, you know, the corporate class is necessarily their worst, their biggest hero. Right? I think the scary story to tell about Vance on top of the abortion stuff is, that JD Vance is like the guy from House of Cards. JD Vance will tack, doesn't seem to have lots of principles really at all.

Tyler Harper (42:49.616)
day.

David Sirota (43:04.404)
And is like a sort of a political killer in that way and like if he gets on the trump track I fear that jd vance has the capability of doing like really evil things for his own ascension regardless of what he said like five minutes ago, right I I Now here's the question that I have when people look at this republican realignment There's two schools of thought the tension with right -wing

Arjun (43:17.88)
Sure.

David Sirota (43:32.767)
Populism is always this how much cultural extremism are you willing to swallow? With your economic populism, right? Like like is the cultural extremism the JD Vance empowering the police to go after women who seeking abortion services is the cultural extremism Sort of the sugar that makes the economic populism go down the throat of the Republican Party or is it the other way around? right is the is

Is the real thing the cultural agenda right the cultural extremism and the economic populism Is for the so -called useful idiots on the left to say hey, you know jd vancid Isn't so bad. know, it's the old idea, you know, well hitler was a vegetarian right like, know, you know Right like like like which is it because I think because I and because I think that there are people who fear that saying anything complementary or or or or not oppositional

Tyler Harper (44:17.63)
Yeah.

Arjun (44:18.092)
Hahaha!

David Sirota (44:32.423)
to JD Vance worked with Democrats on this or that, that even saying that means you're accepting the whole agenda of, you're helping him with the really evil stuff he wants to do. Where do you come down

Tyler Harper (44:42.137)
Yeah, yeah.

Arjun (44:42.71)
Yeah.

Tyler Harper (44:49.677)
Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, think if Trump vans are elected to the White House, the Democrats have a responsibility to the American public to work across the aisle on these areas of economic compromise and try to make the world a little bit better for people, whether or not there's like a horribly regressive agenda that they aren't going to support happening, you know, in another part of the administration. But I do think I think the question is how intelligent are Trump vans and how politically savvy are they? Because

This is not I don't feel like people are talking about this enough I've been yelling about it on Twitter for a while The Republican Party is wielding a multiracial coalition in this election as I mentioned earlier They're getting a quarter of black Americans. They are getting half of Hispanics, right? JD Vance's wife is an Indian woman. So this idea that this is a Are there is the racist rhetoric coming from the Republican side? Absolutely. Do racists vote for Republicans? Absolutely

But it's also the case that there are many minorities in this country are a hell of a lot more culturally conservative than progressives. Imagine, admit they bury their heads in the sand. Black Americans, 25 % of black Americans identify as conservative. I think another 50 % identify as moderates. Only like 4 % of black Americans at the height of Black Lives Matter supported defunding the police. So this is a pretty conservative group of people.

Arjun (45:56.)
Yes.

Tyler Harper (46:16.778)
Same thing with Hispanic folks, many of whom who are legal immigrants who came in the country legally and are not a fan of legal immigration, right? So this myth that minorities are these the stronghold of progressivism just is not true. And they made a devil's bargain with the Democratic Party and they vote for the Democratic Party, but have a lot of cultural differences in terms of kind of cultural politics. And so if J .D. Vance and Trump are smart, they will weld cultural conservatism

to economic populism. And I think that is a very politically dangerous and really hard to beat force. Right. Now, whether that'll happen is a whole I mean, there's a lot of racism baked into the Republican Party, etc. But I think the question for Democrats is like, how close to that politically savvy ideal are they going to get? Right. Like, are they going to do whacked out abortion stuff that everyone hates? Or are they going to moderate a little bit while still being very culturally conservative doing the economic

and have a lot of popular

David Sirota (47:18.264)
And just to underscore your point about communities of color, that's also true inside the Democratic Party. mean, Bernie Sanders, one of the big challenges that he faced, and I can speak with firsthand authority on that, one of the big challenges he faced was because he was presented and portrayed as the left flank of the Democratic Party, I think that was part of the trouble he had at times

Arjun (47:18.28)
You know,

David Sirota (47:48.022)
black voters. It wasn't his specific policy, economic policy agenda. was like, I think there was a specific pockets of, of, communities of color that were like, I, that see themselves as more conservative and we're like, I'm not going to vote for the lefty candidate in the primary.

Tyler Harper (47:49.054)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Tyler Harper (48:00.178)
Bye!

Arjun (48:01.552)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, one thing I'd add to that, I'm really glad, Tyler, you brought up JD Vance's wife. So I'm of Indian heritage. My parents both came from India. And I will say that the crassness, and that is, I honestly think objective, there's a crassness to democratic politics about how race is used. And you both just highlighted something very important. The Indian community is an incredibly conservative community.

Tyler Harper (48:03.24)
Yes,

Arjun (48:30.475)
in comparison to the liberal part of America. India, as a country, is still kind of, you know, they're still working through things like gay marriage, know, trans rights I think is not even in the discourse in India, and Democrats have just superficially just like lumped it, again with kind of a lazy messaging, similar to the existential threat, which is everything the Republicans do is racist, therefore, if they come

you will be completely in the doghouse. I talked to so many Indian Americans who were like that makes zero sense to me because my coworker is a Trump supporter or I live here and I've been able to there's a lot of complexities and I want to be very clear to anyone listening. I am not saying there is no racism in Republican politics, but I think it turns off a lot of communities of color when this crass kind of flattening of it happens right now

What I have just really felt, thinking about the lack of economic populism, the way that they talk about race, is I just wonder if this generation of democratic political operatives are kind of incompetent. And they don't really, you know, they don't know how to properly message a campaign. So they're going to go on, it's an existential threat to democracy. people aren't really buying that. And the response isn't, hey, we should rejigger our message

Tyler Harper (49:41.759)
Yes.

Arjun (49:56.139)
Let's make the populist policies interesting. Let's sell this in a heroes versus villains kind of way. We're taking on Amazon, Ticketmaster, Google. This is the Biden administration. How many young people would be thrilled if you just made campaign slogans that said F Ticketmaster, for example? You know, and they just, don't do that. And I just, I think what really bothers me about the reactionary part of democratic discourse is that they frame it as either people are stupid,

Tyler Harper (50:02.228)
Yeah.

Tyler Harper (50:12.906)
100 % yeah yeah yeah

Arjun (50:25.771)
or the media is out to get them, or everyone is racist, and I am just starting to come down to, maybe you're just bad at this job. Maybe you don't know how to message what should be slam dunks on the court, and instead, you're throwing up your arms trying to say that the refs are, I mean, I'm a big basketball fan. It reminds me of like, players doing badly on the court and then going, well, the refs didn't let me do this, and it's

Tyler Harper (50:33.119)
Yes.

Arjun (50:52.459)
Shut up, LeBron, like you were able to make that shot!

Tyler Harper (50:53.386)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The incompetence I find to be truly staggering. know, I mean just staggering,

David Sirota (51:04.25)
I mean, and I also think that the Democrats are the Democratic operative class is just used to a different playbook. I saw a quote from from Josh Hawley, who's again part of this J .D. Vance Trump sort of realignment wing of the the Republican Party. And I feel like in reading this quote, he just wrote it yesterday about it was about the Teamsters guy speaking at the Republican convention. And and Hawley, you know, saw an opportunity, wrote an essay. And here was his

Tyler Harper (51:11.775)
Mm.

Mm -hmm. Circle.

David Sirota (51:35.194)
Because I think this quote succinctly puts together what they're trying to do. Quote, the C -suite long ago sold out the United States, shuttering factories in the homeland and gutting American jobs while using the profits to push diversity, equity, and inclusion and the religion of the trans flag. Now, I just want to marvel at that sentence because the second half of the sentence is

Tyler Harper (52:00.926)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (52:05.125)
factually, I think wrong. like, right, it doesn't like the business class did not like, you know, outsource American jobs and then use the profits to set up DEI offices and raise a trend like that literally did not happen. Right. But like, you can see what they're trying to fuse together. And I think what they're trying to do. And I think what the Democratic with the Democratic operative class

Tyler Harper (52:08.202)
There's no logical relation to the first half of the sentence.

Tyler Harper (52:22.131)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Sirota (52:33.856)
has opened itself up to is we, we the Republicans are portraying the Democrats as caring only about some vanishingly small set of quote unquote, wokesters and other very small demographic groups. They don't care about regular, I'm putting that in quotes to regular folks.

Tyler Harper (52:47.241)
Mm -hmm.

Tyler Harper (52:58.676)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

David Sirota (53:00.244)
right? And they're willing to sit by as corporate America steamrolls over regular folks. They're willing to stand by that and just advocate for a vanishingly small set of their own demographic special interests. And I think the democratic operative class for decades got used to just saying, well, the Republicans are racist. The Republicans are just racist and like

Tyler Harper (53:20.628)
Yes.

David Sirota (53:22.948)
So they can say that to us, but like you don't you the voter you don't want to stand with it with the guy with the with the white hood Do you and I just think like it's played out. It's it's it's it doesn't work. Like nobody buys that shit

Tyler Harper (53:36.488)
Well, and the reason they don't buy it is because we had four years of Trump. I'm a black guy. I lived through four years of Trump. It was not substantively different than the previous four years under Obama in any way that relates to my racial identity. It was the same. Everything was fine. And I think a lot of minorities believed the Trump thing, you know, and then they saw four years of it. They're like, it was fine. Like the economy was fine. I didn't agree with some of the stuff. I didn't like the clown show, but I wasn't put in a camp.

Like I don't believe that anymore. I also think there's just, you know, think there's a certain, like minorities are not dumb. They know that rich liberals don't send their kids to schools with black kids. They send them to rich private schools with not a minority in sight, you know? And so I think they're like, you're just as racist as the hillbillies, you know? So I don't think people believe

David Sirota (54:26.983)
I I think a lot of people forgive Trump for, like Trump can make like vaguely racist comments, like what was the one that the Democrats tried, like black jobs or whatever. I mean, it's like, yeah, it's stupidly racist, right? Like I feel like lots of people of color just like hear that in their daily lives and not that it's cool or anything, but it's like, it's not that

Arjun (54:38.237)
Yeah.

Tyler Harper (54:39.614)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tyler Harper (54:52.426)
Sure, Yeah.

Arjun (54:53.085)
It's very Archie Bunker.

David Sirota (54:54.587)
Yeah, it's like the guys, exactly, Archie Bunker's It's like, I think what would be more actionable and offensive is if Trump is active, if he was to actively put forward wildly racist policies, explicitly racist policies. And I'm not saying he didn't do lots of things that hurt communities of color disproportionately, but he wasn't like Bull Connor, right?

Tyler Harper (55:09.342)
Yes, yeah. Yep.

Tyler Harper (55:16.682)
Sure, of course.

Tyler Harper (55:22.004)
Yeah, Yep.

David Sirota (55:23.547)
So I think you're right. I think it takes the efficacy away from the arguments being made against him. So we have to switch. We have to turn before we end this. We have to turn to the Democrats here first for one last couple of minutes here. The fight to preserve Joe Biden as the nominee. mean, this is... First of all, I just want to start this by saying I think it's actually mind boggling and

Actually encouraging that this that this foment is even happening. I mean i've gotten so used to a top -down Democratic party that's got everything locked down like the whole the whole internal discourse is so locked down that i'm i'm frankly surprised That it's gotten this far right and I think the fact that like members of congress are coming out and saying we have joe biden Shouldn't be the nominee. I mean, I mean what it what it says is two things one the party

There was a there was a discontent that's been building up and that's that's healthy and good and to the situation the actual like physical situation with Joe Biden is truly so dire and the polling situation is truly so dire that like rank -and -file Congress people are speaking up like that's that's reflection of how bad the situation really is because the typical rank -and -file Democratic congressperson is not often speaking up against their own

President certainly not saying they got to go. But of course the pushback has been I mean Also pretty incredible like the pushback of like we're actually not gonna listen to senators and congresspeople and we're just gonna try to ram this through I mean what? What do you make of that? Like like what's the takeaway from? Okay, like we've hit like sort

Tyler Harper (56:54.42)
Yeah,

David Sirota (57:18.2)
two incredible inflection points in the Democratic Party. Like, legitimate members of Congress, party leaders are speaking out and like the people who are still clinging to power are like, in some ways not cowed by it. So what do we make of

Tyler Harper (57:32.878)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really remarkable. mean, well, I think all the, you know, people cling to power. Biden is a megalomaniac, you know, whose image was largely rehabilitated to run him as the good guy against Donald Trump when he, you know, I mean, he was friends with people in the KKK and has a history of, you know, kind of general dirtbaggery. So I think there's been a lot of Biden rehabilitation and there's always been the two Bidens, the public decent man and

David Sirota (57:39.63)
Sure, sure,

Tyler Harper (57:58.026)
you know, the other Biden behind the scenes, but I think we are now we're getting the other Biden, the other Biden's in the saddle right now, you know? And so I'm not surprised he's killing to power. And I think the only way you should be surprised is if you believe that sort of, you know, 2020 election propaganda about, you know, Joe. But I am shocked that there hasn't been.

David Sirota (58:03.822)
Yeah, yeah, Such a good point.

Tyler Harper (58:23.09)
a more concerted effort. I mean, there's a lot of leaks coming from the Democratic side that, you we know he can't win, blah, blah, blah. But it is totally stunning that, for example, the DNC, I I think they're calling it off, but was trying to ram in a vote to get him nominated early. I mean, they're just spitting in the face of the public. If there's something that I found encouraging is that there is a cross ideological coalition of people that have been

absolutely melting down over this and are saying we can see Biden with our own two eyes. He doesn't make any sense. He seems to be losing a grip on reality. He can barely read a teleprompter. He has to go. Right. And we don't believe that the polls are fake. We don't believe any of the spin that you're giving us. And that's really been across the ideological spectrum. And I found that really heartening. I think there is a core group of Democrats who live in reality.

and are not gonna swallow hook, line and sinker a bunch of lies. And they've also been told for eight years or whatever that the Democrats are the party of truth and honesty and democracy dies in darkness and blah, blah, blah. And I think to many folks credit, they believed that. And they're like, no, no, no, you were when Trump denied the polls, you you lampooned him for being, you know, an anti -intellectual and a liar and blah, blah, blah. And now you guys are doing that. And so I have found that heartening that

That pushback does not seem to break down along, know, centrist, moderate versus left. It's across the board. And the flip side, of course, is the keep Biden coalition is also sort of cross ideological. have people like AOC, you know, joining forces with some pro -Biden moderates, but it is stunning.

David Sirota (01:00:00.701)
So I want to I want to I want to throw into this discussion then the an argument that I've that I've seen put out there which is that and Biden has tried to try to sort of glom onto this argument that okay look There are parts of the donor class whose motives are Not great right parts of the donor class that don't like the populist policies

that Joe Biden has actually passed that he of course never talks about. That's a separate issue. He never talks about it. The Democrats don't want to brand to it. But like Lena Khan at the the FTC, the activism of Rohit Chopra at the CFPB, like the donor class that doesn't like that participating in trying to push Biden out is a somehow a signal that the push

Tyler Harper (01:00:38.292)
Mm -hmm.

David Sirota (01:00:58.288)
to get Biden out is wrong or bad or not anything that somebody progressive should want to be involved in because it's really a way to get rid of the good policies of the Biden administration. And I think that AOC and Bernie Sanders have tried to glom onto that as well. know, Joe Biden is putting forward a great agenda and the next person

would be in there wouldn't reappoint Lena Conn to the FTC. The policies wouldn't be as good and that's the, you know, that's the donor class's involvement. Before I hear what you have to say, my take on this is that I see this more in terms of popular front, a sort of popular front paradigm, that

Tyler Harper (01:01:41.364)
Mm

David Sirota (01:01:45.604)
Lots of rank and file Bernie Sanders supporters are willing to stand together with Bill Kristol and the never Trump Republicans who are willing to stand together with the Pod Save America guys. And we have a poll out there now that we're right as we're talking just just came out two thirds of rank and file Democratic voters say they want a different nominee, right? That that what it means is that lots of people may be coming to this for different motives, but that's OK. Like that, that's OK. But but I do.

Tyler Harper (01:02:09.657)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

David Sirota (01:02:15.116)
Take seriously the argument that, know, well, mean, so I guess what do you make of the AOC, Bernie Sanders? Now Biden's saying, I'm not going to be pushed out by the elites. And this is just like a, this is like an elite coup. I mean, I've said, right, that's what it's been called. Like, this is like a coup of the donor class. What do you make of

Tyler Harper (01:02:30.839)
Mm hmm. I mean, I I don't know. I find it baffling. mean, I think there's potentially a little bit of political nihilism that AOC and company are just they do not believe Democrats are going to do the right thing. And so they're just like, we just got a ride with Biden and stick this out and try to win. think that's like the charitable explanation. I do think, you know, that argument, though, this is an elite push. think we need to be smart about thinking about like, what are the different?

motives of these stakeholders that are coming together to try to push Biden out, right? I think we should be smart about that. I don't think we need to be, you know, kumbaya or, or, you know, have this pan -Glossian understanding of everyone's different motives. But at the same time, you know, if the king is in a clown suit and a bunch of different kinds of people are saying, hey, the king is in a clown suit, does it really matter that some of those people are peasants and then other people are like, you know, we're in the king's entourage? Like,

Yes, is one possible explanation that the people in the King's entourage saying the King is in a clown suit has ulterior motives? Absolutely. Is it all possible that we just all exist in shared reality and can see that the King is in a clown suit? And that includes 85 % of the American public and then also some very rich people? I mean, that's the explanation I go to. And that doesn't mean to your point we need to paper over that the donors would probably love to see someone other than Lena Conn.

But it does mean that like, you know, there are multiple explanations for why this is happening. And I think the donors are on the side of, or are in the same camp as huge swaths of the electorate, you know. And this is just a way to try to make this seem like a coup from a group of rich people.

Arjun (01:04:05.481)
Mm -hmm.

David Sirota (01:04:10.035)
And I also think one last point, I also think it's not either or. don't think it like this idea that it is like the donors are trying to get rid of Joe Biden and effectively they're trying to get rid of his agenda. That's why they're participating in this. And that the next Democrat will be like some old school Clinton era corporate hack Democrat. I mean, maybe that happens, but like it doesn't have to happen.

Arjun (01:04:10.186)
Absolutely.

David Sirota (01:04:38.676)
I've always taken the view of Joe Biden. some folks have gotten mad at me. How could you say that Joe Biden has such a the best economic policies of the last 50 years? You know, he's been a terrible, his record has been bad. He was a centrist Democrat. I've always taken the position that, listen, the reason Joe Biden has good policies is because Joe Biden only actually has one skill and his skill is knowing where the center of the Democratic Party is.

Tyler Harper (01:05:08.51)
Yeah, reading the wind.

David Sirota (01:05:08.634)
And over many years, the center of the Democratic Party shifted and thus and so he had to adopt the policies that he adopted. I think presumably anybody who would replace him also knows where the center of the Democratic Party is and will not want to juxtapose themselves against that center if they replace him. Thus and so is more likely to simply adopt the basic policy program of the Biden administration. I

I don't imagine, exactly. I don't think we're in a situation where the donors get, somehow it's like we get President Joe Manchin. I mean, guess maybe we might. Right, but I think, okay, I guess there's a chance of that, but I think it's more likely it'll just be some generic Democrat, which is exactly what Joe Biden is. Joe Biden is a generic Democrat. He just happens to be 9 ,000 years old and in cognitive decline.

Tyler Harper (01:05:38.686)
which is popular. It's a popular, it's popular. People like

Arjun (01:05:40.264)
Yeah, it is very popular.

Arjun (01:05:49.511)
They already tried that at No Labels.

Tyler Harper (01:05:50.418)
Yeah

Tyler Harper (01:05:59.636)
Yeah. Yeah,

Arjun (01:06:08.272)
The other thing is if you're a donor and you hate Biden's policies and you want to put an end to them, why would you do any of this? Just let the guy run. He's so clearly on a bad footing. All you have to do is kick back with a, yeah, kick back with some lemonade, play Animal Crossing, and he'll do it to himself. So I don't really understand the argument that they want to tank him because he's doing that very easily himself.

Tyler Harper (01:06:08.326)
I

David Sirota (01:06:20.792)
is get out of the

Tyler Harper (01:06:23.348)
Some shibli,

Tyler Harper (01:06:33.957)
Yeah, I mean, another thing I would point out is I know some people in the sort of donor class of Democrats and what I hear from them overwhelmingly is like a meltdown about losing. Like we are losing. We're going to lose. We can't lose. We're losing. And I think, you know, as somebody on the sort of Marxist end of the left, I'm not like, you know, I'm not on team donor here, but I think there is like people are forgetting that these are also people

can donate to the Republican party, but choose to donate to the Democratic party, and on top of that, don't want to lose. And I think, you know, the message I hear is like, we're losing, why are we not even trying to win, right? And I think, do I have lots of policy disagreements with those folks? I'm sure, but do I think they're motivated by like wanting to actually try to win the election? Yes.

Arjun (01:07:25.19)
Cool. Well, Tyler, thanks so much for joining us today. This is an awesome round

Tyler Harper (01:07:29.615)
It's been fun. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

David Sirota (01:07:31.12)
Thanks, Tyler. Okay, that was awesome. That was really great.

Thanks for listening to another episode of Lever Time. This episode was produced by me Arjun Singh with help from Chris Walker, and editing support from Lucy Dean Stockton.

We’ll be back next week with another episode of Lever Time.