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Jared Jacang Maher 0:03
Hey, everyone. This is Jared Jacang Maher, producer with The Lever. The headline, Trump Nominates Matt Gaetz for Attorney General has sent shockwaves through Washington. To call Matt Gaetz a controversial pick is an understatement. This is someone who's been under investigation by the DOJ itself for alleged sex trafficking involving underage girls, and that's just the beginning of why he's an absurd choice. But amid all the outrage, one reaction caught our attention. Quote Matt Gaetz wrote an amicus brief supporting the FTCs non compete ban. He's a genuine populace on antitrust arbitration agreements and corporate power.

Jared Jacang Maher 0:43
...Announced appointments. Hey, Matt, how you doing?

Jared Jacang Maher 0:52
I'm doing good. You know, these last few days, we've had the expected rollout of all the announcements of Trump's different appointees. And I have to say, though that even with that, even as I've had to numb myself to some of these announcements, the fact that we had Matt gates, the representative from Florida being put forward by Trump for attorney general. That is a thing that I had that I did not see that one coming be the individual running the Department of Justice, the top law enforcement representative in the United States, basically. But you had a interesting take there on social media where, you know, you called into question whether or not that would actually be the worst thing in the world to have Matt gates as attorney general. So why isn't it as bad as people might think from the reaction?

Matt Stoller 2:13
Hey, how are you?

Matt Stoller 2:14
I mean, I don't know that he's not going to be bad. I have, really have no idea. So I don't want to like, I'm not framing it that way. I'm just saying, like his track record, because the truth about Trump is we have no idea what he's going to do, and it could be really terrible, right? But it could also, you know, be unpredictable in ways that we might not expect. You know, Matt Gaetz as the Congressman, I followed him fairly carefully, because he's on the antitrust subcommittee, and he's been on it for a few years, and so I paid attention to what he was doing and saying. And, you know, as you do, because I follow this legislation, that's what I do. And he, you know, he was really aggressive about calling for crackdowns on corporate power in a number of different ways, and and, and not just in a rhetorical sense. I mean, there's plenty of people who say we should go after corporate power, but they don't, you know, but when the cameras not on them, they're not, you know, they're, they're doing, you know, bad stuff, right? Taking money and whatnot. And I'm not saying that Matt Gaetz is doing good stuff all the time, but when I paid attention to him, you know, and no and very few other people were he was advocating for breaking up big tech he's a strong advocate for getting rid of what are called mandatory arbitration agreements, which are things that you know you when you you know, when you click through, like, a degree like thing on a website, it has a little clause in there saying you're not allowed to sue them. And he thinks those should be banned, which was like a big fight over corporate power. He's like, one of the few Republicans who thinks they should be banned.

Matt Stoller 3:54
And so that's weird, right? He's very opposed to both commercial and government surveillance, you know, which is pretty, pretty unusual. He hosted Lena Khan on a on when he was guest hosting a podcast for Newsmax, and they talked about privacy and antitrust in big tech in a very friendly way. So I think he's very open to, you know, to some to, you know, to aggressive and assertive antitrust and corporate power questions. And then he authored an amicus brief, which is, you know, and basically a note to very conservative courts in Texas, saying, Yeah, I think the government does have the authority to ban non compete agreements, which are provisions of contracts that prevent you from leaving your job and going to work for a competitor. And this is a big issue that you know, the FTC has has tried to take on under Biden. It's something that private equity, the private equity likes to lock employees and doctors and whatnot into their jobs and lots of big businesses.

Matt Stoller 5:00
Like to do that small businesses too. And so there's kind of this question of, can the regulators get rid of of non competes? A Texas court said they couldn't. Most Republicans said that they couldn't. Matt Gaetz filed a note to the court saying, Yeah, actually, I think that they should. They can so. And of course, you know, no one more than you follows the movement against monopoly power in the US and the actual policies and the efforts to break up some of these big companies. I guess that is one of the interesting things about the politics of this particular issue, because it does seem to, you know, mostly break down among on along partisan lines, but there are some areas where there is overlap, where Republicans will take that populist angle against breaking up big monopolies, particularly big tech. But one question I always have is, how much is that just rhetoric, and how much is it where they're actually interested in taking actions against this? And you say gates is one of the persons that seems to have done that? Yeah. I mean, we'll look.

Matt Stoller 6:10
The answer is, we'll find out. And I could see Matt gates, you know, Matt's Matt Gaetz is a politician, so he's gonna, you know, look, he may not be confirmed, but if he's confirmed, he gets in this job and he's, you know, and he's like, Well, should I do the thing that is really bad for for, you know, people that Trump really wants, or should I do the thing that would fight corporate power? And Trump's gonna get bad because his body's gonna be mad about it. I mean, he's not gonna do, he's gonna do the thing that's politically easier, right? Because he's a politician, so I don't know that that he's going to be a great, a great attorney general on this stuff. I'm just saying as a member of Congress, is what he did, and I'm not optimistic about the Trump administration. But what I hear, you know, I tweeted this out, and I got, you know, you put what usually happens when you say something like this. Some Democrats think something about a Republican. That's not, you know, he's the most evil person ever, but it's just like an observation of,

Jared Jacang Maher 7:09
How dare, how dare you.

Matt Stoller 7:11
I wasn't, I wasn't saying this guy is going to be great, or this guy's, you know, wonderful, or what I was just saying, This is what he did right in Congress. Here's the here's the thing that happened, right? And, yeah. And then, like, that car is painted blue, right? Like, literally, was just saying, I wasn't, I wasn't, like, blue is the best color. I just, like, the car is painted blue. And I got lots of people saying, Oh, you're such a sucker. You're a Rube. Oh, look at all these other bad things that he did and that he's gonna do. And I'm like, I don't, I mean, I know. I whatever. Like, do you want to know what the track record is or not? Right? There's just this, like, mindless garbage thinking, which says that if it's not on the script, if it's not on the cue cards, you can't read it out. And it doesn't, you know, I don't, I don't think the Republicans are going to do a good job on this stuff. I don't think they're going to. They're like, gonna fight corporate power. But I also don't think it's worth ignoring when, you know, they when somebody has done that. And the thing about Matt Gaetz is that when I was there was this moment in in a couple years ago, there was a big fight over these tech antitrust bills. And, you know, it was one of these things where they the committee was writing the bills and fighting over amendments. And sometimes these things take a long time. This, you know, this one, it was 3am and they were still arguing, and everyone was exhausted, and even the Democrat, and it was largely partisan, not totally, but it was like 80% of the Democrats were on board. 20% of them were opposed. 80% of the Republicans were opposed, and 20% was were on board, right? So it was mostly partisan, but not entirely. Anyway, the leader of it was this Democrat named David Cicilline, and he was fighting and but everyone was tired, and no one was paying attention to advocate. You know, it's just like it was 323, M, whatever, and then David Sicilian agreed, conceded something to the other side. He said, I'm going to allow for a loophole in this particular bill so big tech can do something if the company they're trying to buy is under $50 million fine, whatever. We're not going to like, prevent that. And was just like, he's kind of gave up something because he was tired and he wanted to move on. And everyone was, you know, and this was the leaders. Was the strongest, most aggressive, anti monopolist on the committee. Everyone was ready to move on, except Matt Gaetz. And Matt Gaetz said, No, I don't think we should put this loophole in the bill, even though it's small, even though it probably doesn't matter that much, big tech is too powerful. Now it was 3am no one was paying attention. The only people who were who cared were big tech lobbyists and the five people, like the weirdos like me, who were, who were actually, you know, watching it and but that's when it that's when people show you what they're really. Priorities

Jared Jacang Maher 10:00
are gates. In other words, Gates didn't have to do it. At that moment, there was no

Matt Stoller 10:05
no. All he was gonna do is piss off powerful people. That's all that happened. I mean, I you know there are times when you grandstand because you know the cameras are on, and there are times when you when the cameras are not on, or when you're out of the limelight, and the only people paying attention are is big money. And at that moment, big money was paying attention and no one else was, and Matt Gaetz said, you know, held up a middle finger. That doesn't that doesn't mean he's going to be a good attorney general. I'm sorry. I'm kind of defensive about this, but I'm like, I'm pretty irritated because I pay attention to this. I feel like it's important to tell people what's going on and what track records are, and the anger that I got from people saying, you know, largely Democrats saying, How dare you point out this fact, makes me mad. It just makes me mad. I'm like, why are you doing this? Why are you so opposed to understanding what the track record of people is and what policy you know, a lot of people get harmed with non compete agreements and to have a potential Attorney General of the United States with amicus briefs. You know, an amicus brief in front of the Fifth Circuit could matter, and it could free 30 to 40 million people who have, who have, who have non competes. It probably won't, but it could,

Jared Jacang Maher 11:18
and I think that's a that's something that maybe talk a little bit about how and why the attorney general role in particular is important for this bundle of issues.

Matt Stoller 11:31
Well, okay, moving that gates to the side, right? Boeing, what a wonderful company, right? They ended up killing hundreds of people with the 737 Max knowingly putting out a defective product and and yet, you know, they were, they were already under and they were put under a consent decree by the Department of Justice for what they did at the 737 Max, And then the Alaska airway door blowout happens, and what happens? They get put under another Consent Decree. So essentially, the Department of Justice says to Boeing, don't do don't kill people again, you know, naughty naughty naughty. And then a few years later, they're like, don't, you know, don't do that again. Naughty naughty naughty. And the reason is because there's a policy at the Department of Justice. It's called, I believe it's called the Phillips guide, or the Phillips rules, named after a Bush administration DOJ official, saying explicitly that big companies get a better deal than normal people if they commit crimes, because big companies, when they commit crimes, they affect the broader public shareholders. So if the Department of Justice actually brings criminal action against them, then if they get taken down, it could, it could harm other stakeholders. And so you have a Get Out of Jail Free card, basically to big business that was under the Bush administration, the Obama administration, the Biden administration, it's probably the case under the Trump administration, or, obviously the Trump administration, the first one it would Matt Gaetz change that I have no idea is, is, if they picked a very Normie GOP person, would they change it? Definitely not. Right. So that's an example of a corporate power issue. Everyone understands no one wants to die in a plane crash. Perhaps it would be good to have someone at the DOJ. That is like, you know what? I don't actually think that we're going to allow big business to get off scot free from criminal activity and mass murder, right? That's the those are the stakes. To me, I'm scared of flying now. I wasn't scared of flying before. I want someone in there who's willing to hold up a middle finger. Is that Matt Gaetz? Maybe, probably not. Is that a Normie GOP person? Definitely not.

Jared Jacang Maher 13:49
Of course, he still has to get confirmed. What do you think his chances are, even with a GOP controlled Senate, his party?

Matt Stoller 13:57
I have, I have no idea.

Jared Jacang Maher 13:58
I really like maybe this is actually just kind of a fake out, right? Because he's, you know, he's, he's an unexpected choice, even among very, very conservative Senate Republicans, you know, many of whom don't like him at all. You know, one can imagine some resistance there. But you know, you know, Trump holds a lot of sway, and maybe he'll, maybe he'll actually get through if that's the case, like what would be the first signs that you'd be looking for whether or not a Attorney General Matt Gaetz was going to be going in the direction that you'd be hoping he'd go in terms of anti monopoly power and anti trust.

Matt Stoller 14:41
I have no idea if he'll get confirmed. I have no idea what he would do as, AG, you know, he also, there are large national security elements of the the DOJ, like it, you know, I believe the FBI, and there's just, like, a lot of entities that are, that are under, you know, that are. Are part of the Department of Justice, FISA stuff, right? Like, there's a, there's a lot of stuff under there. I have no idea what he will do with any of that. There's civil rights. There's, you know, just just, it's just massive. It's the, it's the it's the lawyer for the entire government. Whenever any part of the government brings a case, it's the DOJ attorney that represents them. There's just a ton of bureaucratic stuff in there. I have no idea how he'd run any of it. I have no idea what Trump would expect from him, probably not good things. I have no idea if he'll be confirmed. I'm sorry to not be more helpful. All I can tell you is what I saw him do

Jared Jacang Maher 15:38
well and for the listener, stipulated that that Matt Stoller doesn't is not saying whether or not Matt Gaetz being Attorney General is a good thing or a bad thing, that you were just looking at it from one particular angle, correct.

Matt Stoller 15:51
Correct. All I'm doing is saying, look, the car is blue, right? Maybe you should know that if you're gonna you know, like, I don't know. That's probably a bad metaphor, but I'm tired and I'm annoyed. I'm tired of being threatened. I don't like it

Jared Jacang Maher 16:10
well, you know, you kind of tiptoed into a very anxious time where you know some of the most unexpected people that probably shouldn't be anywhere near running something as big as a large federal department or agency are getting the keys to the castle here. And Matt Gaetz is probably one of the most, one of the most insane ones. You know, I think it all. It also comes down to, you know, what does Trump in particular think about these issues? Because I, you know, I think it's pretty clear, like one of the reasons Matt Gaetz is getting this Gaetz is getting this job is because he's such a Trump Acolyte. And if Trump was truly against some of the things that you'd be hoping to see in terms of antitrust, and it'd be hard to see that Matt Gaetz would be, you know, running around him and doing it anyway, but, but, yeah, I think it's interesting.

Matt Stoller 17:01
Yeah, I look Trump watches CNBC every morning. He's got a ton of Wall Street people that are going to be super mad at him, if, if Matt Gaetz is, is, you know, anti corporate like, so I have no idea. You know, I just like, I have no idea. But let me just sort of observe that the DOJ people of from Biden were terrible. Like, I mean, the antitrust division was great, but Lisa Monaco, total mess, right? Vanita Gupta, awful. These are, these are people that you don't want anywhere near like, these are people who explicitly tried to create carve out so corporations could do whatever they wanted, right? Lisa Monaco designed a policy saying that corporations that committed crimes could get exempt from those crimes if they did a merger like, and I'm not kidding, right, if a company committed a crime and then said, Oh, we're gonna sell ourselves to another company that hasn't committed a crime, that they would have the slate wiped clean because the criminal was with. They were no longer be a criminal company, because the management that did that stuff would be, you know, and that is a horrible incentive system, Yeah, crazy. And they're all, you know, a bunch of them, you know, she also negotiated the Boeing settlement, and had worked for Boeing a few years earlier, like, you guys covered this stuff. Like, this is the swampiest, grossest stuff you can imagine. Like, really, really, really, really bad stuff and the worst combination of national security people and corporate power people. And that's, that's who was running things under Merrick Garland. So I'm like, okay, you know, I don't, you know, oh my gosh, Matt Gaetz is going to be there. Like, okay, yeah, sure. It could be really bad. But like, let's not, let's not pretend that things were, you know, roses and sweet smelling, lovely beds of flowers, and then the barbarians came like it was really bad under under Biden. It's been really bad for a long time. So we're not, we're not like, and also like Trump won, right? I'm not. I didn't vote for Trump. I don't want Trump to be president. I would prefer to have a Democrat win and be president, but Trump won, and so this is the situation that we're in, right?

Jared Jacang Maher 19:26
Well, Matt, I just want to thank you for, you know, having the gall to have the contrarian take on the in the matt gates as ag news cycle, and I appreciate you jumping on this call late at night to to share some of that, and we'll see how how it, how it plays out.

Matt Stoller 19:43
All right, thanks, man. Appreciate you having me.

Jared Jacang Maher 19:46
Thanks for listening. Remember you can hear more from Matt Stoller at his podcast, organized money. At organizedmoney.fm.