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00:00:00:23 - 00:00:05:08
[TRANSCRIPT IS AUTO GENERATED]

00:00:06:18 - 00:00:26:05
David Sirota
Okay. Final question for you. Comes from a when I told my friend Adam McKay, who also is a leather reader, Adam McKay and I work together on Don't Look Up. I told him I was I was interviewing you and he wanted me to ask you this. And it is an amalgam of a lot of our readers questions as well.

00:00:26:21 - 00:00:52:12
David Sirota
And it goes back to the question of money. We started our discussion with Clarence Thomas. Can you just explain to us the people who are listening in basic regular language, how pervasive and powerful the money is in Congress? I'm talking like on a day to day basis. Yeah, and much you can feel it having an effect, whether it's dark money, soft money, revolving door jobs, campaign loans, side business deals.

00:00:52:21 - 00:01:08:11
David Sirota
Just as somebody who came to Congress, not in the traditional up the political ladder kind of way. How noticeable was it and how would you tell people what goes on? How would you explain it to the regular person?

00:01:09:13 - 00:01:40:22
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I find it you know, I find this so interesting because when I when I kind of went through this experience of crossing that threshold from running, you know, candidate waitressing, doing all that stuff, finally, once I crossed that threshold and was sworn in, it didn't appear, I think, in the way that I had necessarily. I mean, I don't even know what I thought.

00:01:40:22 - 00:02:13:17
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Right? Like we when you think about it to your question, we know how corrupting it is. We know that it is pervasive, but it is hard to imagine the actual granular ways in which it shows up. And so there's almost kind of like this blank space where if you're just filling it up with an assumption, it's like this cartoonish idea of a lobbyist calling you and say, you better vote for this or we're not going to give money, or I will, you know, but that's not necessarily how it happens.

00:02:13:17 - 00:02:45:07
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
It is really fascinating because it is such a deeply psychologically manipulative environment that you're in when you're in Washington. It is not because it is almost like a city dominated by an industry. And I mean, I'm coming from like as a New Yorker, right? So like in New York, the culture is very different because because New York is so large, there are so many different industries, so much diversity, etc..

00:02:46:04 - 00:03:04:21
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
When you when you're in a city like Washington, D.C., or, for example, you know, San Francisco and you're in Silicon Valley, it's almost like the culture of an industry defines huge parts of, for example, Capitol Hill. I won't say D.C. because I know it doesn't represent everything.

00:03:05:07 - 00:03:05:14
David Sirota
Sure.

00:03:06:01 - 00:03:38:23
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And and so what that means is, like you literally kind of enter. It really feels like going to another planet with different social rules. And what happens is that what makes a speakership so powerful, for example, is that you let's say you get elected speaker, you automatically become a you don't get there, first of all, without raising in an ungodly amount of money because you're not just raising money for yourself.

00:03:39:00 - 00:04:09:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You are raising money for an entire political party that constitutes hundreds of people. And there are there are in the whole society is structured around it. People will host and will invite people over for breakfast. Like all four host of breakfast. And and then when you check in, for example, I mean, I, I don't associate myself with these kinds of environments, but this is what happens.

00:04:10:06 - 00:04:31:07
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You'll check into like that party and of course you want to go if you're hosted by a speaker or by a chair or whatever, and there's just a bunch of envelopes on the table and they have checks in them. And of course, like it's legal, right? It's it's these are checks from people's leadership PACs and things like that.

00:04:31:17 - 00:05:05:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But it's not just money straight from industry. It's money from from people in power within the party. And where there are difficult decisions for individuals to make is where I think people say whether you take that money or not, like you want to do something right. And if you do not participate in this, you will be stonewalled and you will be kind of like cast out from society.

00:05:05:18 - 00:05:36:16
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And that is what it feels like, like when you're in there. We spend so much of that time there. And let me tell you, I lived there like I lived basically living in the woods because it is ferocious. And where you start where it actually feels difficult is that it feels like the well-being of your community is being held hostage unless you participate in this kind of culture.

00:05:37:08 - 00:06:11:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And and the clamp that comes down is difficult to describe and it's very vague. Things will kind of happen to you, but you won't know why. For example, like you won't be able to get a suspension vote. So for people who may not know, like suspension bills are things that everybody votes for, both parties vote for. They're very basic.

00:06:11:00 - 00:07:02:12
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
They'll be resolutions like sky is blue, post office renaming, like things that are very not consequential oftentimes, sometimes consequential, but very not often non-controversial. You won't be able to get anything across. You won't be able to get a single amendment passed. You won't be able to. In fact, legislation I've had legislation that I've co-written that that there there became times where, for example, with the stimulus checks, when Trump outmaneuvered Democrats, when Democrats initially proposed $600, and folks like Rashida Tlaib and myself were saying this is absolutely ludicrous and unacceptable, we introduced our own legislation and for the full 1200, you know, prior and and then we were kind of laughed it off as naive.

00:07:02:12 - 00:07:23:14
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And then Trump outmaneuvered Democrats by saying he wanted to give more. So then we already had the legislative text written for that. But because it was so important at that time, that was a time of like just it was so it's like it's like when you're playing basketball and you'll see during a timeout or before the game starts.

00:07:23:15 - 00:07:47:21
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And and so we'll be just shooting the ball in for practice and the person from the opposing team will just knock it out because they don't even want to see you make the shot. Even on practice. It's like that. Like it's just it is cruel and it is petty and it is in a way sometimes that where people are okay, sometimes with suffering in order to reinforce a certain political order.

00:07:48:10 - 00:08:23:22
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And and I think for some people, when they struggle with with some of these decisions, it's because there is something they are trying to accomplish, sometimes not, you know, sometimes people are just like politically craven and there are people that get elected for the wrong reasons. But I also think that there are people who do kind of ask themselves, like, do I do nothing and take the stand and not secure something for the people I was elected to represent or do I not?

00:08:24:06 - 00:09:01:17
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so a lot of what makes that determination is the power of like how well the outside is organized and their to be supportive. And so, you know, I think that it looks like that. It also looks like everyone you start to talk to comes from a certain class. And there are issues like, for example, with the eviction moratorium that are deeply class divided and depending on the class of people that you surround yourself with, you are literally living in a different reality.

00:09:02:02 - 00:09:42:18
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And it is it it is. It's a class reality, like lobbyists, I think lobbying is only part of the story when it comes to the influence of money, because, you know, a lot of the people elected in Congress are almost come from aristocratic like levels of wealth, many of them, you know, and and that is it. I mean, it's like if you ever went to college or if you ever became friends with a super wealthy person and they they just like, ask you things that are like, what world do you live in?

00:09:43:03 - 00:10:09:23
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You know, it it it's the same thing times 100 where people just may not really have a true understanding of what trying to live in the world as a working person today is like. And I've had members get incredibly defensive with me because they'd say, well, you know, like my dad was working class, like in, you know, 60, 70, 80 years ago.

00:10:10:04 - 00:10:33:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
It's a we are in a different world right now. And even the realities of of working class today are are different. Similar but not the same as they were generations ago. And we see this, like, for example, with student loans and college like how many people have we heard say, I worked my way through college, so can you?

00:10:33:00 - 00:10:56:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, it didn't cost more than a house. And also it was largely free for many, many people in in the baby boomer generation. And so, yeah, you could cover your college expenses with a part time job. So there's a lot of that times amplified not just generationally, but also amplified with class beyond just a middle class or an upper middle class.

00:10:56:05 - 00:10:59:19
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But in a ruling class type of way.

00:11:00:15 - 00:11:20:11
David Sirota
Yeah. And I think I think it goes back to what we talked about with the with the discussions about differences in tactics and strategies, understanding that even people with with with good values have to always struggle with operating inside of that corrupt different planet that you just. Yeah.

00:11:21:00 - 00:11:40:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah. And like an example with the American rescue plan. Right. So that that was one of the examples of votes that came up, like why not vote against it? Well, you know, there wasn't the attempt there was the attempt to you you had the actual grounds of the parliamentarian ruling it kind of out of order than Bernie forces.

00:11:40:00 - 00:12:06:09
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And that's the Senate side fight, right, like that. That fight didn't happen in the House. The House, the House. We voted for a $15 minimum wage. We had passed a $15 minimum wage. The problem there was in the Senate. But even then, okay, you know, Bernie and folks like weren't able to to organize pass that threshold in that moment because you have members that of the Senate that just aren't aren't going to to let it happen.

00:12:06:21 - 00:12:34:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But at the same time, you know one of the most it also contained one of the most consequential things I have ever accomplished as a legislator, which is that in my community, which was ground zero for COVID when the pandemic started, we had we had know of the ten top ten zip codes for for COVID at the start of the pandemic, I believe five of them were in my district.

00:12:35:07 - 00:13:07:13
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I was able to secure the FEMA Funeral Assistance Fund, which was the largest funeral assistance fund program in American history. And the only and and it was a good example of progressive organizing, because this wasn't just an idea that I had. This came from organizers on the ground that understood and saw the demographics of how COVID was killing people along class and racial lines far before the public health indicators were able to measure that.

00:13:07:20 - 00:13:38:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so we were able to get that in early enough before there was opposition to it. I don't think we would be able to pass that had had it waited three, four or five months, because once the public health data indicated that it was largely the poor, the working class immigrants, black and brown people that were that were being worst impacted, we saw the political will evaporate almost overnight on everything from stimulus checks to to moratoriums on payments and so much more.

00:13:38:14 - 00:14:24:03
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so, you know, it's there there is a reality of legislating that is profoundly tactical and there's no escaping that. This is the landscape of legislative organizing and deciding on votes. There are days where we have to make a decision oftentimes before we are ready to before we are prepared to, and we have to make a call. Whereas in other kinds of organizing, tenant organizing, for example, or or, you know, corporate pressure campaigns, you are able to build up and understand you are or you are able to organize by the milestones that you achieve.

00:14:24:03 - 00:15:06:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But oftentimes when it comes to legislative work, we have to act before we are ready. And that's going to include, you know, your you're guessing a lot about what is the right thing. So you are under resourced. You're under supported, just like in many other forms of organizing. And so you're doing your best. But I think that that's where the that's where we have to emphasize the importance of not just difference in tactics, but also having an actual process of accountability that is not rooted in the same type of policing and disposal of individuals.

00:15:06:09 - 00:15:32:21
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
That feeds a cynicism that only undercuts a movement. This is what folks want us to do, and they've been explicit about it. And and and it's really important, I believe, that we do not give in to that. We see and we see the ruling class making specific decisions to engineer these kinds of outcomes. You know, it is not a coincidence.

00:15:32:21 - 00:16:18:16
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You see, Elance takeover of Twitter has transformed has absolutely transformed how that platform works. And he has done it to meet his specific and his specific desires. We would be ludicrous to not consider that in the varying degrees of platforms and how that incentivize incentivizes certain kinds of conversations and ends and certain kinds of frankly, he you know, and and so having a process, I think, of of reconciliation even after tough moments, is important on the left, because without that, it will only continue to be exploited.

00:16:20:00 - 00:16:37:15
David Sirota
Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you so much for taking the time with us. And I want to just say one other thing. Thank you for taking the time to be with an independent media outlet. Please encourage your colleagues to engage with independent media. We appreciate you doing this. We've talked to others as well. But I always say that I said it to O'Connell.

00:16:37:15 - 00:16:40:07
David Sirota
I'll say it to you. And again, thanks so much for taking the time today.

00:16:40:15 - 00:16:42:09
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Of course. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

00:16:42:21 - 00:17:03:16
David Sirota
So that's it for today's show. As a reminder, our paid subscribers, you get the time premium feed, you get to hear that bonus content as well as leverage. Porter's analyzing Brandon Johnson's surprise victory to become Chicago's next mayor, something that we have been reporting on for a while. Listeners can subscribe to Lever time premium again by heading over to Lever News.com.

00:17:03:20 - 00:17:29:03
David Sirota
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00:17:29:10 - 00:17:32:05
David Sirota
Until next time. I'm David Sirota. Rock the Vote.